I don't think any person should do anything sexual or otherwise that they find "demeaning"

What's demeaning depends on each individual person or woman. Not sure what you're referring to as solely for men's pleasure, unpleasant if not painful/unsafe for women, care to explain?

Partner and I do a lot of things that some people might see as "unloving" sex, might even see as unsafe but to us it's all very loving and we make sure we always play safely.

there are many popular forms of sex, some unconventional, some are demeaning to women, definitely. I agree that both, or all, people who participate in the demeaning ones are "cheating men of the kind of experience sex is meant to be: whole body, loving, exciting.)" The thing is that some of these are conditioned fetishes and addictive so the participants get kind of hooked on them, while losing the ability to enjoy the kind of experience that might be loving while being, as they would call it 'vanilla'. I think it's like the different between the finest wine at dinner and getting drunk on whiskey.
Loving men do not get pleasure out of demeaning women.

I see the potential for this subject to turn into an argument between a group of people who have one set of values and a group that has another set of values, and the arguing has been quite unpleasant before and gotten nowhere, so I have responded and not going to argue.

"Loving men do not get pleasure out of demeaning women"

That is so very true xa1. A man who gets pleasure out of demeaning women is an abuser.

you are in a very gray area. One might say that it has up to possibly including 50 distinct shades of.
What we find demeaning is highly depending on our own personal opinion and perspective. What you find demeaning others find pleasurable.
What one woman sees as unhealthy, another sees as a deep spiritual connection... what one feels as painful, another feels as "sweet pain"

But if you are trying to say that porn doesn't have enough sweet affectionate moments, then I would agree with you. But I don't agree that just because those moments aren't presented well, the opposite is somehow "wrong".. at least not in the mainstream. Some of the extreme stuff seems to go to far.

But I don't buy into the "porn is bad" after-school-special-non-real-world type thinking.

That's definitely insightful, so far. Hmm ya, I guess everything depends on perspective. I suppose if I just say that I personally find things demeaning, as long as his response was sensitive and he took me seriously..I guess that's what I have to do! lol. That is very insightful, Xa1, about people being conditioned and addicted to different kinds of sexual practices (ok, I'm trying to find a better word than "practices" ;p). And it's true a lot of people have fettishes, and S&M is kind of big. I wasn't really talking about stuff that extreme. I kind of feel like that's a whole other conversation. I mean, who knows why people like stuff like that?--but if they get into it with others who share the same interest, and everything is MUTUAL, then whatever! lol. I am referring to oral and anal sex. I realize this subject can be highly controversial. To me, it just really seems that those are solely for men's pleasure. I have read that anal sex is often unsafe/unhealthy for women, and painful. And at least to me, I would literally rather throw up than give a man oral sex. I mean, that's just sick. I understand a lot of women are used to it, because it's so expected, and it's just become not a big deal. But they would get the same pleasure from normal sex--and imo, they would get more, because it's a full body experience. (I am bit worried though. Last guy who liked me that I told that I think oral sex was pretty much invented to demean women, responded defensively and a bit angrily, "That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!" Of course it is. ALMOST everyone accepts it as normal now. And he's the guy! HE'S the one with something to lose by that idea.)

No, It isn't about demeaning women. It just feels good.

I have to question. How do you feel about a man giving oral to a woman? Is that demeaning?

If you were really in love with your partner, your opinions might change. Giving a man oral sex can be incredibly exciting, and not just for the man. Knowing you are giving such intense pleasure to the one you love is definitely not demeaning. And of course it should go the other way, too. Your partner should enjoy pleasing you, too. Many women have their best orgasms from a man's tongue, and for some it's the only way they can achieve their O. (Not that sex is all about orgasm, but it's a nice perk.)

I love anal sex, it feels great to me, there is no pain in it for me, my orgasms are great and it is a "whole" body experience, the same as vaginal intercourse. For me, I won't say one way feels better than the other, they're both great but very different. When I first started having anal sex (30some years ago), I was the one who initiated wanting to try it and it's safe as long as it's done right.

As for oral sex, as Dave mentioned, is it demeaning to a man giving a woman oral? I enjoy giving my man oral, it's for his pleasure but also for my pleasure, I love doing it. He feels the same way with giving me oral.

I am into BDSM and nothing is ever done that is demeaning to me, my partner would never do anything to me that would harm me physically or emotionally. Everything we do from the simple (vanilla sex) to the extreme and everything in-between is what we BOTH want and it's all very loving. Just because it might not be a slow, gentle, kissy, huggy way of having sex doesn't mean it's not loving sex, very emotional, sensual and passionate.

There is no right or wrong way, what both people want and enjoy is what is right for them. If you feel something is degrading to you then simply don't do it. If you have a partner that can't respect that, then he's not the partner for you.

yeah, what awesome says is pretty much where I was going.

I like providing oral sex for a woman. nay, LOVE. I do so because hearing her moans and feeling her excitement is a huge turn for me. I certainly don't feel demeaned.

I can't say for sure, but I would imagine the same is true for women.

As far as anal sex, I've known three different women that were very excited by the thought of it, and claimed that it felt very good.

I've never had anal sex, but on the healthy sex forum, it is often discussed that stimulating the prostate for men is supposed to feel very good.... and that there are supposedly similar reactions in the female body (there was some debate on that).

Just to restate, yes, I find porn sex, in general to be too cold and affectionless, and the lack of female organisms is especially bothersome... but I don't find it demeaning.

I appreciate everybody's input. I am not particularly experienced on the subject due to my background, so learning about the variety of people's experiences is important. And I think that that's what it comes down to, it's different for a lot of people. (For example, I've definitely heard/read that anal sex is painful for a lot of women.) I think the main point is if it's pleasurable/agreeable to both parties and that neither feels it's demeaning. I suppose some of my main thoughts are that a. why isn't normal sex good enough (for stimulation/orgasm/etc.)? (Like does oral really work 'better', seriously?) And secondly, it's hard for me to believe that the experience is more enjoyable--or that it's particularly healthy--when it's that detached from the other PErson. It's like if all it is is about stimulating the genitals, why not just do it yourself without someone? That is a question I would really like to understand the answer to (because my mind goes to demeaning the other person, which unfortunately there are plenty of misogynists that, in many contexts including normal sex, get a high off of). Sex is centered around excitement about the other person and their whole body, and enjoying each others' bodies. I'm skeptical that being used to provide a service to their body part (esp. in a way they could just do themselves) is that healthy. At the very least, I do believe it has certainly HUgely widened the path to making sex more about demeaning or at least using women for men's pleasure than about mutual enjoyment (and basic mutual respect). (As Dave pointed out, some of elements of porn already seem to do that.)

What makes it demeaning is when your partner clearly understands that something is uncomfortable and unpleasant to you and still tries to persuade you to do something you don't enjoy doing.
It is not the act but the intent behind it.
This principle can be applied to " normal" vaginal sex too.
The cognitive limitations we put on what is " normal" probably has a lot to do with our upbringing. I truly believe that a lot of what we feel is normal when it comes to sex has to do with what happens at home during early days of childhood.

Hey, if you dont like oral, that's fine. But I wonder why you feel the need to define it for the rest of us.

See? There is goes, you are being accused of 'defining it for the rest of us', as if you were.

I like the way you put it when you said "I'm skeptical that being used to provide a service to their body part (esp. in a way they could just do themselves) is that healthy" I do know people for whom it is just that 'service for a body part' and not a celibration of Love. I also understand what you mean about that the person who does the oral does not experience the same mutual pleasure that vaginal/penal sex does. Some men will swear that their women say they do, but it is really like explained here,, it is an indirect pleasure of a different kind, a satisfaction in pleasing the other. A woman does it to please the man, even if she gags and chokes, because she likes that she is pleasing him. A man does not experience the same thing in giving oral to a woman, since there is nothing shoved down his throat.

To me, personally, I enjoy oral as foreplay, but I don't experience the clitoral orgasm as being as strong as the g-spot orgasm, and the g-spot orgasm needs more than a tongue to do it, and a finger is different feel than a good hard cock. With oral as foreplay, in the context of the rest of a lovemaking session, I don't think it's demeaning.

I do know guys who kind of just say "comehere, bitch, and suck my cock", and that is demeaning.