In response to your comments on "making amends", I have to respectfully completely disagree. In 12-step work, making amends has nothing to do with the people standing in front of us, whether or not they are abusive or kind; nor does it have anything to do with whether we have an addiction that is a chemical dependency (e.g. alcoholism, drug addiction or prescription medications), or an addiction that is an obsession with other people, places or things (codependency).

Making amends is the way I free myself of the guilt, shame and regret for having done things that are wrong, according to my own values. It makes no difference whether my amends are accepted, received graciously or rejected. It has everything to do with me being self-responsible, making right what I have done wrong, not trying to fix a broken relationship or to mend a good relationship. It is cleaning up my side of the street, which I need to do, regardless of whether or not I am in a recovery program, working out my life on my own, or just going about my life. I make mistakes, and it is my responsibiity to do whatever I can to acknowledge those mistakes, go to the persons I have harmed by those mistakes (including myself) and stop doing the things for which I am making amends. In so doing, it can bring healing to relationships if both parties are willing, but whether or not it does, it allows me to live in the present moment, not weighed down by the guilt of my past wrong doings, and not afraid of the future, i.e. repeating those hurtful behaviors.

It is no different than paying back a store from which I stole money, returning a lost wallet to the person I know it belongs to, or apologizing for being rude to the cashier waiting on me. It also includes taking care of myself, treating myself with respect and ensuring that I do not repeat the very codependent behaviors that have caused so much discord, pain and loss in my life.

This is what making amends means in 12-step programs, whether AA, NA, Al-anon or CoDA. It applies to all of us equally. It works on all of us equally, and we are healed by making amends equally.

Hugs,

Grace

I couldn't agree more with Grace, Booky.

You're way of thinking is not unusual for us that are codependent. You think of yourself as a victim instead of yourself as an abuser.

Codependency is not a badge of glory or honor, rather it is using things outside of ourselves, like fixing others because WE KNOW they need fixing, the hell with what they think. It is using, to not have to deal with YOUR problems...it's a distraction, a coping method that hurts others and ourselves, just like a drug or a drink.

You are no different, no better, no worse than a drunk. You are the same if you are a practicing codpependent.

Anything that we "use" to not take responsibility for our actions, to put it on someone else, leaves us in victim status.

Amends is forgiveness....it is a complicated process for us children of abuse...I started by putting down the drink and focusing on healing my inner kid...that's what worked for me...I began to "parent" myself in a loving and gentle manner. That's all I have control over.

Life is way too short to stay stuck in anger and resentment and I know for myself, if I stay in anger and resentment, without processing it, I will use. I can't heal or have any spirituality of connection with God when I'm pissed off.

When I forgave my abusive father, I did it spiritually...but I did confront him about his abuse as a way for me to heal, telling him that he abused me and it was wrong...but I knew when I was ready to do it, I could not "attach" myself to the results (will he be mean, will he be sorry, will he get it..) it didn't matter. I just stated my truth.

What mattered was that I finally stood up to my abuser, for myself. Period. I was and am very proud of myself for having the courage to do it...because it was hard.

I think alot of us that have been abused are afraid if we speak the facts to our abusers, it will hurt them. But really, what I learned is that I was afraid of him/them not loving me...afraid they would abandon me. That is very hurt child stuff...because if you think about it as an adult, they never could love us...they did the best they could and that's that. It's sad, so cry about it...and feel the pain so you can move thru it...it's the only way Booky....I care about you which is why I'm sharing so much.

I really love John Bradshaw's "Healing the Shame that Binds You", among others. I'm currently re-reading "Homecoming". Booky we have been hurt so badly as kids, but no one but ourselves can rescue us..it's so worth the journey...IMO and in my experience, healing from childhood abuse, is the foundation for all good things to come...

God bless you Booky.

Here are Bradshaw's Books etc....

Bradshaw On: The Family - 1986
Bradshaw On: Healing the Shame that Binds You - 1988
Homecoming: Reclaiming and Championing Your Inner Child - 1990
Creating Love - 1992
Family Secrets - 1995
Bradshaw On: The Family (Revised) - 1996
PBS television:

Spotlight: weekly program (host), 1969-1972
The Eight Stages of Man: eight-part series, 1982
Bradshaw On the Family: ten-part series, 1985
Where Are You Father?: one-hour program, 1986
Healing the Shame that Binds You: one-hour program, 1987
Adult Children Of Dysfunctional Families: two-hour program, 1988
Surviving Divorce: ninety-minute program, 1989
Bradshaw On Homecoming: ten-part series, 1990
Creating Love: ten-part series, 1992-1993
Eating Disorders: three-part series, 1994-1995
Bradshaw On: Family Secrets: six-part series, 1995
The Bradshaw Difference: syndicated talkshow produced by MGM, 1996

"It is an opposite perspective between reforming an abuser compared to recovering from abuse. "

If you're a co-dependent who is recovering from abuse and whose behavior has not affected others then why would you be following a 12 step program?

It seems like you want to modify the spirit of making amends to justify your retribution and to set boundaries. I'm not sure where you got your definition of "making things right" but it's missing the part about making things right because YOU made them wrong.

Don't forget that Step 8 is about making a list of people that we've harmed. You can't have Step 9 without it.

And really, I'm a perfect example. I was beaten as a kid by and alcoholic father, so I victimized as a child.

I also am an alcoholic. I am also codependent. I am all of these things.

I'm not schitso over it because I apply the same steps and principals It's not "us" and "them" it's "we"

...hate it for you Booky, but if you are a practicing codependent, you are a "we".

And really, I'm a perfect example. I was beaten as a kid by and alcoholic father, so I victimized as a child.

I also am an alcoholic. I am also codependent. I am all of these things.

I'm not schitso over it because I apply the same steps and principals It's not "us" and "them" it's "we"

...hate it for you Booky, but if you are a practicing codependent, you are a "we".

I can forgive but not forget. I could forgive a mule for kicking me, I wouldn't go stand behind it again.

It is impossible for me to forgive, a mother who gave me away in a bar, to alcoholic abusers who beat me and each other for the first 10 years of my life. It is possible for me to understand that by surrendering this over to my Higher Power, that while these memories are still painful, that it would lead to what was best for me. At age 10 I took these people to court, and made the State of Delaware take custody of me. That was the power of my Higher Power working within me, even when I wasn't aware of 12 step programs. Do I need to complete anything with these people? No, why would I. The facts are the facts. The Truth is the Truth. I did believe in a Higher Power even then.

When I was 16, I had a therapist. I had discussed the subject of not feeling complete with these people. He encouraged me to go back, and speak with them. I did....
I got there and the woman my mother had illegally given me away to, was in a full leg cast. I was young and naive and asked, "What happened?" She said, "he had thrown her down a flight of steps. The judge said he was going to throw the key away, next time."

I had seen this violence so many times as a child, and been directly beaten by these fools. At that moment it became totally clear to me, that my life was "MY OWN." I didn't need to make amends to them or they to me. These were just the fates, of what led me to this moment. I never went back to that Therapist, or had contact with them again. I did go to 2 therapist years later. I've never tried to complete any of this horrible behavior from my past again. I knew it wasn't me, It wasn't my fault, and I didn't do it.

Holding on to what was done to me in the past would just keep me in a victims role. I am a survivor not a victim. Blaming or thinking that there was ever something to complete with my perpetrators will never make my life whole. What makes my life whole today is acknowledging my own "Life, Strength and Hope."

I think what I am seeing on this thread is confusion about the difference between making amends and forgiving our abusers. Those are two very different processes in recovery.

Amends is about owning my own bad behavior, and making that behavior right, through a careful and deliberate process we call the 8th and 9th step of 12-step recovery. It has nothing to do with forgiveness of others for what they have done to us, although in my experience, I am unable to do my amends work if I am still holding resentments against the person I need to make amends to. So, in some cases, forgiveness of others is a prerequisite to making amends to them, because my resentment creates unwillingness to own my part.

Similarly, I can forgive my abusers, without subjecting myself to more harm. It does not mean I condone what they did, forget what they did, but it means I stop being the jury, judge and executioner.

My father abused me terribly, but I have nothing but love for him today in my heart, because through the power of God, I have been able to forgive him. It does not mean I have to have a relationship with him today. It means I am freed to go forward with my life, without resentment and hate toward him for what he did to me. Not forgetting it, allows me to not allow it to happen to me again, either through him or someone like him. I can forgive him because I know and understand he did the best he could do with the information he had at the time, and the absence of the tools that I have today as a result of participating in Al-Anon and CoDA and other recovery tools available to me from many resources.

This is the beauty of a recovery program. We learn slowly how to rebuild our lives, stop being victims and perpetrators, and forgive ourselves and others for the ways we all fall short of our ideals, while learning how to better care for ourselves and others.

Ok, I get the point of the 8th and 9th Steps of making amends for our own past wrongs, and I agree with that for anyone being AA or CoDA or any person wanting to clean up their own life.

I am all for making amends to those we did wrong to in our life, amen.

My point is that we codependent must still make the added amends with those that did harm to us, and that kind of amends has to include the ideals of justice.

Like if we were violently assulted then the way of amending such a crime is by reporting it to the authorities and possibly putting the abuser into jail.

It is the dictionary that defines "amend" as making right and making it better;
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/amend

So I still say that codependency gives us a secondary challenge of making amends with abusers, and if a codependent person does not do that then their recovery will be incomplete.

Anyone can go half way and be just fine, but I suggest going much farther, and I have to do this in my own family because mine are still abusive and they do not make any of the amends that we need.

So my amends with my family of origin must include the ideals of justice, and we give no forgiveness when there is no amends.

I think what you are trying to say, Booky, is the notion of making amends to ourselves. I make amends to myself when I stop tolerating and enabling others to abuse me. It is not my job to mete our justice to my abusers. That is up to God, not to me. I do however, have a responsibility to myself and others, that I do not harm others. Sometimes not harming others means I have to take action to do whatever I can to ensure the abuse I received does not happen to others. But that action is not an amend to the abuser. It is an amends to myself. Needing to control what happens to an abuser is part of our sickness as codependents. We learn in recovery the relief of knowing we are not in charge of anyone but ourselves, and only then, of our own choices, behaviors and actions. We leave to God the rest. God bless..Booky, you would find such relief from your anger toward your family in CoDA. I highly recommend it to you!

What if you're both AA and Al Anon? (me)

I have been stuck on this step, in AA longer than Al Anon and seeing much of my amends is fuzzy - harms done on both ends - difficulty there.

I think forgiveness for the person involved and their harms and releasing those and focusing on our own harms is how we know what we need to amend - admit to our wrongdoings and ask if there is anything we can do to right them.

Biteme it is so true those of us who have lived with abuse have such a complicated issue with this - for me I tend to take on blame that doesn't belong to me...

If we have done the other steps in order we know what our character challenges and we have done our inventory and we have a higher power helping us with all this...

In making amends we cannot make the situation of others right - we have stick to our own behaviors and leave out what the other person did that was wrong! If we failed to report something we can report it but we have to leave the results to our higher power.

WE may be unwilling to forgive, and I absolutely think forgivness is essential to make amends to someone, if we're unable to forgive, we can ask our higher power to do it for us...

Well I feel that I must counter in that to "forgive" and "forgiving" are not a part of the 12 Steps, and it is not a part of any program that I know of.

Now Christians preach forgiveness but I find they preach it wrong, because Jesus said it best in Luke 17:3, KJV;

"Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2017:1-5%20;&version=9;

And that "repent" has the exact same meaning as make amends. So if one is not willing to repent and no amends then there is to be no forgiveness.

Any unrepentant abuser that is out there still abusing is not to be forgiven by us, and it surely is not justified to forgive them just because we saved our own skin as we move away from the abuser.

So I disagree with any forgiveness without amends first.

That forgiving stuff might sound wonderful in group or in Church, but in real life and in real recovery a still active abuser (including one in denial) is not to be forgiven.

Amends comes first and forgiveness comes only after amends.

And I disagree with Grace in that I say we are to seek our justice, we promote justice, and in some cases we must enforce the justice, and all of us do have real power in our families, power in society, power in any relationship, and I say our recovery is dependent upon making amends based in justice.

To forgive an unrepentant abuser ( even one that just denies the abuse) is far from justice if we forgive them.

Forgiving and forgiveness are part of every 12-Step program. My goodness, I learned that within the first six meetings I attended in Al-Anon and CoDA, and have friends in AA, NA and DA, all of whom understand and accept the necessity for forgiveness for recovery to have any real meaning. We learn to forgive ourselves first, for the harm we have done to ourselves, and then we forgive others for the harm they have done. We focus on ourselves, not on the abuser or the ways we believe we have been victimized. Similar to the teachings of Buddha, Jesus, Islam....its all the same. This is the essence of love...to err is human, to forgive is divine, as St. Francis of Assisi wrote, which by the way is included in the AlAnon literature given to newcomers.....Sorry, but you are mistaken Booky, and you really don't have any business telling others what 12-step programs are about, until and unless you are participating as a member in at least one of them. Hugs to you anyway!

I do know that the "forgiving" is spoken of in the groups and I support forgiveness after amends but not before.

The 12 Steps tell about amends in Steps 8 and 9 but not forgiveness.

There is no doubt in my position that many people do push the idea of forgiving in groups but that is side stepping the amends.

To claim forgiveness without making amends is to do nothing.

To forgive based on amends is to put real action in the words.

And Jesus based His forgiveness because He made amends on the cross.

And I do see that people in group can declare the "forgiving" and they will feel better, but the recovery will remain incomplete.

If one is satisfied with feeling better and being safe then just forgive every body, but if one wants justice, equity, righteousness, then we have to make a real amends with the abusers.

That is my point.

Instead of spending so much energy on what the programs do, what Jesus does and which dictionary you prefer, why don't you just figure out what works for YOU?

If you're not part of a 12-step then why are you so concerned with how they do their thing? If you won't forgive someone without them facing justice first than that's your boundary. If you feel you nothing to make amends for than you're in a great place.

Who is it you're trying to convince with this thread?

Hi ayg,

I am applying this stuff to myself as I am trying to make amends with my own still actively abusive family of origin, and I definately do mean all of it to myself and my own life.

I did want to share my perspective with the Board to see what others might say about it.

And you are correct that I am not a member of any 12 Step group and I do not do the 12 Steps, but I do not see that as excluding me from taking some guidance from it anyway.

I love the concept of making amends, and I see amends as equivolent to repentance, and I only find instructions about making amends from the 12 Steps, so the 8th and 9th Steps are my reference point.

And I am not saying that the Steps are wrong - no, but I am saying that for codependency then we need to go another farther Step of making amends based on justice with the abuser(s).

And I agree with you that it is my own boundary for myself, so I am sharing it for others to see the point and see the need for it too.

I was trying to explain the principle to the group and not just to state it as my own personal boundary.

As to who am I trying to convince with this - then I would hope and pray that I would convince anyone or everyone that wants to seek an end to the codependency dysfunction to the fullest measure, as I do.

Thanks for asking.