One must also conclude that there is no "time" in the spirtual realm. So how can one even guess as to when Satan (who goes by many names) and His folowers were cast out from heaven?

As far as the believe of the time, as You said is in genesis, one must also use logic and consider that there was no sun or anything else yet to give light, except for Gods spirit which is the only light. Consider this, the first thing that he creates is the earth and nothing else, no stars, moon or sun etc. What happens in Gen 1:3? God said let there be light, we must use logic and say that He made the sun because what light do we have to give Us night and day? The sun and in a orderly manner God tells Us what he created and on what day. A blueprint so to speak.

Good point. That's why I used eternity past. It's beyond the imagination of time. The human mind simply can't grasp it. God only knows, but by reading Scripture, it appears that would be the time when Satan fell.

There's a debate among scholers to exactly when in the Scriptures that event happened. Yes God created light. He spoke it and it did come to pass. So, it seems plausible that Satan fell from heaven before God created light.

Thanks for the reply and you're right. This is a very deep, deep event--one that I need to pray for wisdom about.

sorry to be a party pooper, but i had to throw in this video guys......
sorry...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcE0vUL8mQc

this is just one video that will explain it. .....

peace.....

What makes you think he was more powerful than Micheal?

I dont ever take anythng from Youtube with a grain of salt.

you dont have to take Youtube for anything...... think of this....
angels cant sin.....GOD made them perfet......GOD cannot be in the presents of evil..... they cant fall from grace or heaven. they cant turn bad. devil and satan WAS NOT in the org. bible. it was added in.

and i've said this before, lucifer is talked about in ISAIAH. he is actually talking about the king of Babalyon. how he fell from grace. lucifer is a "latan word"...... not Hebrew! why would a Hebrew bible put latin words in?? it doesnt really make sense....

one more thing...

In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century.

sorry i pushed the submit reply button before i was done....

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light.

So why is this a problem to Christians? Christians now generally believe that Satan (or the Devil or Lucifer who they equate with Satan) is a being who has always existed (or who was created at or near the "beginning"). Therefore, they also think that the 'prophets' of the Old Testament believed in this creature. The Isaiah scripture is used as PROOF (and has been used as such for hundreds of years now). As Elaine Pagels explains though, the concept of Satan has evolved over the years and the early Bible writers didn't believe in or teach such a doctrine.

i hope this explains everything for you....

God bless

so moorea944, do you not believe in the existence of an evil being, the devil? (the enemy of God)

no, not at all. in the bible it's refered as sin. but through the ages, esp. middle ages, it was put in. you really need to study and look into other scriptures to understand it.

but dont take me wrong, i dont mind that other people believe in ghosts and gobblins. to each is own. i just love a good debate.

peace........

the devil was cst out of heaven cos he wanted to take the glory of god. god had a plan for us we wanted to be like him. but for that to happen we needed to know good and evil. sin. and bodies. but he needed someone to bring us bk to heavenly father. jesus offered he saisd he would sacrifice himself he would give us free will to chose to hear him or deny him. but satan said he would make sure he would bring everyone bk. but that mean take away our free will. he wanted to rule, god threw him out of heaven and his followers to live in darkness an to never have a body.

If Satan has evolved from man's thinking and been added to the bible centuries after Christ, then who took Jesus to the top of the mountain and tempted him to follow him?

The Old Testament is a record of God's intimate dealings with people for nearly 4000 years. Nowhere throughout it does the popular doctrine of a personal devil appear. The Law of Moses is a very detailed system of ordinances and religious instruction. Nowhere in it is there the slightest hint of any such thing as the orthodox Devil.

God is always represented as supreme and alone in power, Himself holding the power of death. The relationship is solely between an individual and God, and it is individuals themselves that are held directly responsible by God for their own actions. It is typical behavior of human nature to try to shift the responsiblity for one's actions to someone or something else. In the Old Testament, however, there is never a mention of any external, personal, supernatural tempter. Yet according to orthodoxy, this is the greatest danger people should be warned about

If there were such a thing as this Devil of orthodoxy, constantly seeking to trap people in his coils, it is impossible that God should not have constantly, urgently warned people against him.

For 'proof' of the Devil, we are referred to the 'angels that sinned' --

God's holy angels are immortal, and sin and immortality are totally impossible associates in the pure Bible picture.

Whoever they are, they give no support to the Devil theory. Who they are we are not told. It is clear from the way Paul refers to them in that passage that at that time more was known about whoever it was that was referred to by this term 'angels' - information we do not have. But seeing God has not seen fit to tell us any more about them than He has, it is wisest not to speculate. Certainly 'angels' bound in chains waiting judgment give no support to the orthodox doctrine.

"Jesus said to Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan; thou savorest the things that be of men" Matthew 16:23.
'SATAN' is the common Hebrew word meaning 'Adversary' and is so translated in most of its occurrences in the Old Testament. In some places the translators, for some reason, chose arbitrarily to transfer the word rather than translate it properly. If they had been consistent, the result would have been a severe blow to the 'supernatural personal Devil' theory.

Why, when they knew from the parallel passage who the 'adversary' was, did the AV translators use 'Satan' here, rather than properly translating it, as elsewhere where they had no choice, where 'Satan' would have been absurd?

"Then stood up Joshua . . and builded the altar . . for fear was upon them because of the people of those countries . Now when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin heard that they builded the Temple . . then they came . . Then the people of the land weakened them, and troubled them, and hired counselors against them to frustrate their purpose . . and wrote an accusation against them:' (Ezra 3:2-3; Ezra 4:1 )

Here is a clear example of scriptural satanism. 'Accuser' is one of the meanings of the Hebrew word 'satan'.

The word 'devil' is a translation of (and is derived from) the Greek word 'diabolos', a common noun meaning 'false accuser, slanderer'.

We note that diabolos, like satan, is a common noun, and not a proper name. As Jesus applied 'satan' to Peter, so he applied 'devil' to Judas (see John 6:70 above). Judas was a liar, a betrayer and a false "accuser". Therefore he was a 'devil'. Paul used exactly the same word (diabolos in the Greek) to describe both men and women who would not be led by godly characteristics

so what i'm trying to say is that words like "adversary" is translated to satan. a person opposing someone else, thinking differently. Jesus called Peter "satan". so is Peter satan?? off course not. Peter did something Jesus didnt like, so now Peter is Jesus's "adversary". an angel can be someone's adversary or satan. but satan is not a person or fallen angel. it is a term.

and i'll say this again, God made angels immortal, they cannot sin!! so how can an angel fall from heaven when they cant!!!!!!!!!! God cannot be in the presences of evil. that would mean if an angel sinned, (which they cant) God would be in the presence of evil (which is impossible)!!

but anyway............

good debate everyone!!!!!!!!

You still didn't answer my question about who it was that tempted Jesus? Or, since you don't think the Devil exists as a persona, then perhaps Jesus was over-tired and deluded with hunger and imagined it all?

And what about the demons and spirits that Jesus cast out and the disciples after him cast out in his name? The man living at the tombs with a whole legion of demons (fallen angels and followers of Lucifer/Satan) - if it was just sin causing his bad behaviour and lifestyle of madness, what (or who) left him to go into a herd of pigs?

Oh, and you're right about God not being in the presence of evil. Which is why Lucifer was cast OUT of heaven with his followers. Lucifer didn't stuff up until he made the choice to try and be greater than God.