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cb72
Hi guys, I didn't want to see this buried in the debate thread, but that is where I'm coming from with this post. I am personally very fond of "adoption is an option". I love that. I love the idea of matching babies to loving families. (Also, I love being pregnant, and if my health were better, I would gladly be a surrogate mother, and not for money.)
A lot of anti-abortion people throw adoption out as an argument to ban abortion. Sounds good, but... I have been pregnant twice. The first time, I could have died in delivery. Noone knew I would have a retained placenta. But after about an hour of hemorrhaging, I was saved - yey. The second time, both me and the baby could have died from hemorrhage (a partially detached placenta). Were I to go into labor, anytime, unless really close to the hopital, I would have probably bled to death. The baby could not be born at all without a C-section - so no delivery in the ambulance or taxi or wherever. The baby would go with me. I aborted that second pregnancy - not an easy decision - and pretty late, too. None of this came up, and could not have been found out, until late in my fifth month.
Before my sad experience, a friend of mine, carrying twins, started bleeding for no reason, and lost 3 quarts of blood in 45 minutes. The doctors saved her and both babies with multiple transfusions. A couple of months after my ordeal, a friend of a friend actually died in delivery - hemorrhage again. There was nothing to predict her death. (In my case, the doctors could at least see that it was a possibility.)
So what's the point? Many people forget how big of a risk just being pregnant and delivering is. In less developed parts of the world, women die from pregnancies (mostly in childbirth) all the time. Worst case is Tibet, where 1 in 40 women will die due to pregnancy. I know, in Tibet (no medical care) I would be one of them. Very sobering. (BTW, the US is way behind Europe on that, I don't know why.) I talked about life and death matters, but there are also health issues - diabetes, blood clots (I've had that too, very lethal), eclampsia (also life-threatening) not to mention post-partum mental health issues (hello?). None of these are very rare, but are managed by doctors, for the most part successfully.
I want to say this again: pregnancy is NOT a trivial issue for a woman. Biologically, women are NOT designed to pop out babies SAFELY. There are reasons for that, but that's a different thread. Right now, I am married, we use two forms of birth control, and I know there is still a small risk of getting pregnant. I want to see abortion legal, as a backup option to protect my life and health. I don't want to be 20 weeks pregnant with a pulmonary embolism before my health is deemed in danger.
So, I told you my story, and expressed why I want to see abortion legal. Other people on the other thread have told of their story as an incest survivor, and would like to have abortion legal in such a case. There are doublessly others who were victims of rape, and want protection for rape victims. There are a lot of us here who are medically unable to care for themselves, let alone for a child with severe disabilities - it is much harder to find a loving, caring family to adopt a severely disabled child (I mean more severely disabled than having Down syndrome).
Everybody has a different story. I can not decide now what the answer to some future moral equation is going to be, and I don't trust anybody else to do it. That's why I believe the choice (one way or the other) should NOT be written in stone (law). Only those involved can solve their personal moral equation - they are the only ones responsible for it anyway, to the big guy above.
I am not posting this to change many minds, most people have them made up, and that's not going to change. But some of you, I know this for sure, some of you were not aware of how big of a health risk simply going through delivery is (or even just being pregnant) - even for healthy mothers. It is very small, but it is there. I want you to acknowledge this perspective, and then go on with your convictions, changed or not. My life was turned upside down, and I have a very personal experience that I need to share.
Bottom line:
Noone should be forced to go through delivery without their consent.
A lot of anti-abortion people throw adoption out as an argument to ban abortion. Sounds good, but... I have been pregnant twice. The first time, I could have died in delivery. Noone knew I would have a retained placenta. But after about an hour of hemorrhaging, I was saved - yey. The second time, both me and the baby could have died from hemorrhage (a partially detached placenta). Were I to go into labor, anytime, unless really close to the hopital, I would have probably bled to death. The baby could not be born at all without a C-section - so no delivery in the ambulance or taxi or wherever. The baby would go with me. I aborted that second pregnancy - not an easy decision - and pretty late, too. None of this came up, and could not have been found out, until late in my fifth month.
Before my sad experience, a friend of mine, carrying twins, started bleeding for no reason, and lost 3 quarts of blood in 45 minutes. The doctors saved her and both babies with multiple transfusions. A couple of months after my ordeal, a friend of a friend actually died in delivery - hemorrhage again. There was nothing to predict her death. (In my case, the doctors could at least see that it was a possibility.)
So what's the point? Many people forget how big of a risk just being pregnant and delivering is. In less developed parts of the world, women die from pregnancies (mostly in childbirth) all the time. Worst case is Tibet, where 1 in 40 women will die due to pregnancy. I know, in Tibet (no medical care) I would be one of them. Very sobering. (BTW, the US is way behind Europe on that, I don't know why.) I talked about life and death matters, but there are also health issues - diabetes, blood clots (I've had that too, very lethal), eclampsia (also life-threatening) not to mention post-partum mental health issues (hello?). None of these are very rare, but are managed by doctors, for the most part successfully.
I want to say this again: pregnancy is NOT a trivial issue for a woman. Biologically, women are NOT designed to pop out babies SAFELY. There are reasons for that, but that's a different thread. Right now, I am married, we use two forms of birth control, and I know there is still a small risk of getting pregnant. I want to see abortion legal, as a backup option to protect my life and health. I don't want to be 20 weeks pregnant with a pulmonary embolism before my health is deemed in danger.
So, I told you my story, and expressed why I want to see abortion legal. Other people on the other thread have told of their story as an incest survivor, and would like to have abortion legal in such a case. There are doublessly others who were victims of rape, and want protection for rape victims. There are a lot of us here who are medically unable to care for themselves, let alone for a child with severe disabilities - it is much harder to find a loving, caring family to adopt a severely disabled child (I mean more severely disabled than having Down syndrome).
Everybody has a different story. I can not decide now what the answer to some future moral equation is going to be, and I don't trust anybody else to do it. That's why I believe the choice (one way or the other) should NOT be written in stone (law). Only those involved can solve their personal moral equation - they are the only ones responsible for it anyway, to the big guy above.
I am not posting this to change many minds, most people have them made up, and that's not going to change. But some of you, I know this for sure, some of you were not aware of how big of a health risk simply going through delivery is (or even just being pregnant) - even for healthy mothers. It is very small, but it is there. I want you to acknowledge this perspective, and then go on with your convictions, changed or not. My life was turned upside down, and I have a very personal experience that I need to share.
Bottom line:
Noone should be forced to go through delivery without their consent.
Before something happened in my life I was pro-choice, however I have changed to pro-life. I really do not want to explain what happen or why I chnaged my mind.
luckily, in america, less than 1.3million babies were killed last year, slightly down from the year before.
even the most ardent pro-lifers will never support saving the baby if it means the mother has to die... fortunately, the reality of that choice is rare - although a common argument for those in favor of abortion.
it is a very difficult issue, but one my son put in perspective - "i'm glad i wasn't aborted"
it's a baby, not a mass of cells... inconvenience is the #1 reason for abortion, not "the mother's health"... except when the mother's health is loosely defined to include her mental health, which may mean she's not ready.
however, the #2 reason for abortion and closely tied to the #1 reason is men who are jerks and coerce women to get an abortion, especially in the case of incest and statuatory rape. Go to an abortion clinic and watch how many men sit out in the car after forcibly escorting the woman to the door. it will give you a new perspective on "choice".
The biological truth is that a fetus cannot survive outside of the womb, and more than you can hatch an egg from one you brought home from the grocery store. So when you eat a cupcake have you killed a chicken? Of course not. Not any more than an abortion kills a baby.
The biblical truth of it is even more amazing. Again, due to ignorance and lack of education, the pro life zealots are just plain wrong. The bible says that all life is soul, and soul life is in the breath. God BREATHED life into Adam's nostrils remember? The Hebrew scrolls speak of a fetus as "nefish kai" which is an inliving thing. In the Greek and Aramaic, both speak of Jesus before he was born as a "holy thing". Again religion seeking to control people through exploiting their ignorance.
Why people adamantly choose to remain ignorant in the face of documented facts just is a crime.
pro life propoganda machine.. omg... the pro choice machine fueled by the coffers of planned parenthood outspends all pro life organizations combined... abortions = $$$ and keeps the pro abortion machine running, filling the world with myths and fears...
of course, it depends upon when you feel life begins... i'm sure my daughter when she was one month old, outside of the womb, could have survived on the street without the nourishment of her parents...
my sister had an abortion because it was a choice between her life or the baby's... she hated making the decision and it still haunts her... but she did not make a immoral choice... there isn't a single, logical, sane pro-life person out there that argue anything other than save the mother first.
I don't believe there is any ONE answer to this....it MUST be personal choice....there are too many variables...too many perspectives for any ONE to be right all by itself........
Would half a million be okay???
Consider how many people are in the US today
Until that time, it is a cellular growth within the mother's body, esp. for the first 3 months. (allowed time for an abortion). After that the nervous system develops and it moves like a human but there is no soul yet.
I also feel abortion should be a last resort, but it should be entirely up to the woman who would be giving birth to the baby and taking care of it for 18 yrs. of her life.
What really upsets me is the same people who murder doctors and go beserk over the issue are the same people who love the death penalty. These are humans with souls, no matter what they did...no THAT's murder. Having a procedure to remove a cellular growth is NOT murder, IMHO.
i guess when the baby kicks you and you see him or her moving, they have no soul? that's ridiculous.
omg... i got to stop... i didn't know the ignorance went this far... it's too much and i'm in a good mood...
I also wanted to say that you sound quite cynical, what with "abortions=$$$." That just doesn't make sense. In any case, the matters of God, soul, life and death should be pretty universal in the Christian world. Yet in Europe abortion is legal, accessible and rampant, and their societies didn't implode, nor were punished by god. As Western culture goes, US is very, very right. It's just good to keep that in mind.
Viejo, thanks for the Biblical perspective. Also the story about raising the aborted fetus was eye-opening. I always wondered where pro-lifers could possibly come from, and now it makes a little bit more sense. Though to me it is scary that someone can believe that story. We definitely need better schools. This is not a matter of politics, but just basic biology. I hate it when people think facts are a matter of opinion, and science is a matter of preference.
i don't know where you get this information, but the catholic church does not teach that.
if you want to know the official teaching of the church, please get the facts straight. i will get you the source vatican and US bishops website documents so you can know the facts.
limbo has not been tought by the catholic church in over 30 years... it's in limbo LOL
we have faith that God takes care of our children, and it is not up to us to presuppose or place any limits on God's mercy... i and the catholic church find it hard to believe that God in His mercy doesn't welcome every child, baptized or unbaptized...
i'd love to meet the person who is spreading the stories about the aborted fetus being kept alive... and it seems like that only pro-abortion people continue sharing the story... because a logical person would dismiss it as a bunch of BS
Pbb.
Your church is run by a bunch of MEN who will never have their little girl parts ripped open by uncles/fathers/PRIESTS/whoevers--just to have them re-ripped open by HIS child.
May your god forbid these MEN ever get to control OUR (WOMENS) bodies.
That thought alone, makes me utterly ill.