John 1:1, 14

"In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God ... " and "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

This verse is VERY clear. Jesus is the WORD.

No, Rachel it doesn't. Jesus IS the word, but not in those verses. When you read it in Greek it is completely different from our "English" bibles. The translators have capitalized the "W". I think we already spoke about that too. The Greek word for "word" in those verses is "logos". It means someone's plans, reasons or thoughts. It is talking about God, not Jesus. IT's all about God's plans and reasons, then in verse 14, it then talks about Jesus. So when you read it in Greek, then it becomes very clear.

You are getting a little deep here. You seem to be working overtime to prove your point.

Once again, I bring up Colossians 2:8(NIV)

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ.

You seem to be depending to much on Human tradition and the elemental forces of this world. Not so much on Christ.

I will agree with you in that Jesus, as a human being, had a begging and an end. But, Jesus, the Christ, had an indefinite beginning and no end. God, through the human form of Jesus, taught and showed us the way we should live. In most cases, this will never happen. Sinful human nature steps in and messes everything up.

A perfect example is Sarah. She and Abraham were told by God that there would be a nation raised up from their descendants. Sarah got tired of waiting and looked at it all from a "human" point of view. She gave Abraham her slave girl to make heirs. This was NOT God's plan. Later, when Sarah gave birth, she got quite jealous of the slave girl and her child. She asked Abraham to banish them. This was not God's plan either. But, through the works of God, everything was fixed and now there are two nations. We will NOT argue that.

My point in bring this up is that we as humans step in and try to help God!! He needs no help. Human "sinful" nature steps in and we have a mess. God steps in and things get turned around and "work for the God of those who love God, who are called according to His purpose."

What I am trying to point out is that man steps in and tries to explain away things that don't make sense to him.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

But, that's just my opinion.

I have to disagree with your last comment(reply #47) Israel4ever to Rachel's comment(reply#46). Her interpretation is not erroneous. The symbolism there goes back into the Old Testament in regards to the Word becoming "flesh" and living among us. When the Israelites had the Ark of the Covenant with them in the desert in was housed in a "tent". That tent was made of animal "skins" which of course is "flesh". The Ten Commandments, yes the "original" stone tablets which was God's Word written by His very finger in that stone, resided in the Ark. This is a direct parallel to Jesus Christ being manifest in the flesh and thus the Word, Jesus Christ, became flesh and dwelt among us. I will admit that I don't have anywhere near the education that you do Isreal4ever. However the person whom I spoke to about this very subject this week, the pastor at our Baptist Church, does understand the original Greek and he told me exactly what I have just stated here.

Good man, Chris. Thank you for this post. I did not go back that far. But, you and your pastor are write. And I was under the impression that the original language of the apostles and disciples who wrote the New Testament was actually Aramaic. Wouldn't this throw a "monkey wrench" into all this stuff about the Greek language??

I just know that I LOVE God and Jesus and The Holy Spirit and I accept Jesus as my savior. I know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He died upon the Cross for forgiveness of my sins. I'm so happy He and God loved us enough for Jesus to leave the perfect Heaven and come to earth to die for us.

I love people and try to do unto others as I would have them do onto me.

I did not study Greek. God knows every single heart in the world.

God Bless us all.

BEAUTIFUL RACHEL !!!
THANK YOU

,;♥´`'*°♥.¸,,♥´`'*°♥;,
(:..♥♦*´`'¸.♦´`'*°♥..:)
‘♦.♥HUGS.....♥..♦’
.....’'♦.,,.¸♥¸.,,.♦‘’
...,,....´`'*♦*´`'.......

Look at verses 3&4, same thing, it's talking about God. Verses 14 starts to talk about Jesus. That's the point I was trying to make, that's all. I was just mentioning it wasn't about Jesus.

John 1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

How can this not be the same word that is in v1?

AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US!!!

I believe this is what is called a "circular" argument in Debate!!

Mary, the New Testament was written in Greek. Everyone spoke Greek in the Roman world. It was the lingua Franca, or common language. It was also part of the "fulfillment of time!" (Aramaic only appears in Daniel in a few verses and a briefly in a few other places. The people did speak Aramaic, but Greek was the language of trade and commerce, and writing, because it is a much richer language.)

" and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15

This is because the most amount of people knew the same language, along with the Romans making travel safe, for the gospel to be spread through tour the world.

I do read Greek, and I can assure you that Israel is 100% wrong about John 1 and logos. Ask me and I will post what the Greek really says and why it proves Jesus was God!

So here is the Greek concerning John 1:1c

Nominative and Accusative: Definite Article – Jesus is God

The nominative case is the case that the subject is in. Therefore, when the subject takes an equative verb like “is” then another noun also appears in the nominative case – the predicate nominative.In the sentence “John is a man.” “John” is a subject and “man” is the predicate nominative. In English, the subject and the predicate nominative are distinguished by word order. (The subject comes first!)

Not so in Greek! Since word order in Greek is quite flexible and is used for emphasis rather than strict grammatical function, other means are used to distinguish the subject from the predicate nominative. For example, if one of the two nouns has the definite article (in English, “the” in Greek, “”), it is the subject.In Greek, word order is employed for the sake of emphasis. Generally speaking, when the word is thrown to the front of the clause, it is done so for emphasis.

When the predicate nominative is thrown to the front of the verb, by virtue of word order, it takes on emphasis. A good illustration of this is John 1:1c. The English versions typically have “and the Word was God.” But in Greek, the word order has been reversed, it reads:

κα θες ν λγος.
“And God was the Word.”

We know that “the Word” is the subject, because it has the definite article, and we translate accordingly.

“And the Word was God.”

Two questions, both of theological import, should come to mind:

1. Why was θες (theos) thrown forward?
2. Why does it lack the article?

In brief, ** its emphatic position stresses its essence or quality:

“What God was, the Word was,” is how one translation brings out this force.

Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the person of the Word, (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father.)

That is to say, the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has; the lack of the article tells us that Jesus Christ is not the Father.

John’s wording here is beautifully compact! It is, in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find! As Martin Luther said, the lack of an article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism.

To state this in another way, look at how the different Greek constructions would be rendered:

κα λγος ν θες.
“and the Word was the God.”
(ie. The Father, against Sabellianism)

κα λγος ν θες
“and the Word was a God”
(Arianism, including the NWT or JW translation and the Christadelphian position!)

κα θες ν λγος
“and the Word was God”
(Orthodoxy)


** See Wallace GGBB, pages 2266-269

From Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar by William D. Mounce

FROM THE FOUNDER: IF THIS TOPIC CONTINUES IN DEBATE OR ARGUMENTS I WILL BE FORCED TO DELETE THIS TOPIC.

Again, I say thank you, Roger.

Although I appreciate other's views, I think some have used this thread to get personal and argumentative.

I fell that God gave us a mind that could make choices, but to present an choice as the only way, this is just wrong!!!

Thank you, MarleneJ for the translation from Greek!!!

Hugs to you Roger.