And YES....the FATHER, the SON, and the HOLY SPIRIT are 3--everlasting...no beginning and no end.

I and the Father are One, Jesus staid

I cannot add one more word to what has been said already.

I do appreciate this discussion thread. It might have gotten a little misdirected, but it has brought up a very valid point:

Matthew 16
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Remember, we need to rely on God to show us who Jesus really is!!!

[I and the Father are One, Jesus staid
I cannot add one more word to what has been said already.]

Is Jesus saying the he is God? Or is he saying that him and God are like minded. Jesus doing the will of his Father. John 17v17-23 explains that.

To reply #24. Ever notice that GOD is written "GOD" and "God" in our bibles? Why is that? Do you know why the translators put it that way?

The biggest difference we need to notice is the difference between god (little g) an d God (big G). But, yes, it reflects the names of God as translated by man. The GOD is referring to "the triune GOD and the God seems to refereeing to God, the Father., There is a difference, but most people don't need to know these differences, You are getting into subjects that are trite.

Chris, I very much appreciate your bringing up the ffact that Jesus was a b ridge in that gap between God and man (us) Thank you much for that!!

Thanks Mary and I want to add a bit more to the discussion. As you said GOD is used to refer to the "Triune GOD". This expression does not show the seperate yet equal parts of the Trinity. When God is expressed this way it does indeed mean God the Father as one part of the Trinity. As well when LORD is used in the Word it refers to God the Father not Jesus. Jesus is referred to as Lord being the second part of the Trinity. It really does make a HUGE difference in small details. In my previuos response to this post(#28) I mentoned the instance where I noted John 17:22 where the words you, we and me are actually capitalized as You, We and Me which in turn maintains the divinty of God and Jesus. I know it is a bit "anal", but in my estimation it is very very important. I will note that these words appear capitalized in the New King James Version. In fact the KIng James Version, the New International Version and the New Revised Standard just to name three do NOT capitalize these words which is in error in my view. The New King James Version, as already stated above, along with the New American Standard Version and the Holman Christian Standard Version just to name three DO capitalize these words You, Me and We. I know exactly what you are thinking that this is very trite, as you mentioned above Mary, but I submit to you that it is not. Let's say that we have a first time reader of the Word and he/she reads a version that does not capitalize these words. I know it may sound trivial, but they may not understand that when John 17:22 says "you" that it is just some person as in "hey you" and not specifically referring to God the Father. The same thing could be misread for me and for we. I realize that most will argue that this is not a sane argument since even new readers would figure out the truth in the text. I like to err on the side of "caution" and "clarity", especially when talking about God's Word, and even as a "seasoned" Bible reader and student I like to see the words You(God the Father), Me(Jesus) and We(God and Jesus as one) just this way. To me it is showing respect and reverance for the divinty of God and Jesus Christ in the same way that Spirit and Holy Spirt show the divinity of the third member of the Trinity. Again this is VERY VERY IMPORTANT people!!!

I really must apologize now. I forget that there are some very "mature" readers here on DS. I am sorry for even mentioning that something is "trite". For me, and a few readers, these things are anything but trite. But, you have to understand, I have A Dad who has basically only a sixth-grade level education. I was jusr short of a bachelor's degree when I quit college. I need to "dumb" down my language when talking with my dad. I have learned to do this with him, and still show him respect, which he deserves.

Sometimes these feelings come to the front because many readers are in the dark when it comes to the deeper things of the Lord. The minute details of language and phraseology. Thereby, I think that some readers here don't quite understand what is being said, here.

I am not calling anyone "dumb". I am saying some people talk smart because they think their smart.

Proverbs 15:14
The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.


18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

ops......that last scripture quote was from Galatians 5

The term “trinity” is not found in the Scriptures per se, but the idea certainly is there.

The idea is that of “THREE” DIVINE PERSONS who function as an absolute UNITY .

They are one in nature; each shares the essence of deity. They are three “manifestations” of a solitary Divine Person.

The terms “Godhead” and “Trinity” are respectable words, each representing concepts that are taught in the Holy Scriptures,The Bible , The Word .

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

In the book of Colossians 1v15, it tells us that Christ is the "image" of God. Just that one verse tells us that he is not God. Verse 3 tells us that God is the God and father of Jesus. So they are not co-equal. Colossians also tells us that Christ was the firstborn of the creation. (Paul tells us that it is the New Creation, not pre-existance creation before Adam). Jesus had a beginning. God doesnt. God cant die, Jesus did. God cant be seen, Jesus was. Why did Jesus have to be glorified if he was already God?

These are just some of many verses that tell us that Jesus is not God or co-equal. Jesus had to conquer sin, how could he had done that if he was an immortal God? Doesnt make sense does it...

Also, Revelations speaks of the sevenfold spirit of God. Can anyone explain that? I don't know what that means.
I believe in the Trinity
God sent his son, in the form of man, but being God, so that he might pay for all sin. If a man had to die to save the world from sin, then Jesus was merely a prophet, and would not an earlier prophets death have been just as good? How can any man be sin free? Even with God working in him.
By sending his son, God in human form, he would see life from Man's point of view and experience all that flesh has to experience, yet he was without sin, died for our sins, and thus is our intercessor before God. I am curious, is there a prophet who was without sin?
I believe that Jesus did make the claim that he was God. If it is true that he is just a man who God worked through, a prophet, then he was lying and the entirely of the new testiment is without value.
And the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity, the indwelling of God.
We are not suppose to argue over words, But we are told to be wise. I am curious as to whether their is a cult that espouses Jesus is only a man? I have been to many different churches, and they all have agreed with the Trinity. Harsh words have been written about this debate (and while we should only discuss, not argue) , if someone is peddling false religion, we need to look deeply, prayerfully, and with great wisdom into whether it is right to say that someone or something is absolutely wrong.
May we all pray for wisdom.

I ran across this scripture today:

We who are strong must be considerate of those who are sensitive about things like this. We must not just please ourselves.
- Romans 15:1 (NLT)

This verse seems to remind me that we need to "discuss" our beliefs. We need to be sensitive to what others think.

1.2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

! John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

We need to test other's belief system against the Word and find out for ourselves if they are false or true.


Colossians 2:8-10 (NIV)

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ.
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

Here Paul is speaking to the church at Corinth. They were beginning to follow other "teachers." He warns this church that there will be many who will teach a "hollow and deceptive" philosophy.

But, he goes on to tell the people at Corinth that in Christ Jesus "all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form".

1 Corinthians 15:14
and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Stop to consider how many men died with this belief in tact. We know the Peter was crucified upside down. We know that James, the brother of Jesus, who did not profess Jesus was the Christ until after the resurrection, was killed by a sword, We know that Stephen was stoned to death. Why would these men stand by their belief in Jesus as the Christ all the way to death if they were not convinced it was true???

I'm just saying!!!