I have no problem with people choosing to form a new group/ subset for christians who want to seek and provide support based around their faith - but I have to say that I agree with much of what old Diz has said with regards to representation. This appears to be an exclusive subset for those with Christian beliefs - not for those " of faith"
so it is sad that this is not reflected up front.

When I read through some of the responses it appears that this was a group to which people received personal invitations - is this the case? If it is so - then I am sad.....and perhaps even a little offended.

I have never noticed anyone being criticised for expressing religious views of any kind on this forum ....although it is equally as reasonable that people can declare that they have no religious beliefs- or that they have beliefs based in a non christian faith. I would hope that this is a group where everyone is free to express their personal opinions - and where no one is made to conform with the views of others.

I personally have chosen not to declare my religious / spiritual views - and that too in my opinion has equal validity- but I certainly should not be judged - or even prejudged in any way because of my choice.

I am going to go and have a read of the run up to this schism- to see if I can make sense of some of what I am reading.

Debbie

Good Ol Diz, says it the best. Won't add a thing, self censored.

First off, folks, thanks to all who have joined the new group. It is going well, thank you. As for the Christian Flag, my apologies for my insensitivity. I have changed the flag the the United States Flag. I realize that there are many here who are of a different nationality, but DS is an American company, and the Flag is a symbol of the melting pot that is America. If anyone is "offended" by this, I'll not apologize.

Secondly, for those who did not receive a personal invitation to the group, the answer is quite simple and innocent. I was only able to invite those who have "friended" me on this site. And some of those friends were excluded as I knew they would not appreciate the offer, and one was actually offended that I invited her, not knowing she did not have any faith at all. had no other means to invite people when I founded the site. Anyone is welcome to join, my friends, even atheists. Just know that God will be an important part of the discourse found there.

Again, folks, some of you are so worked up and angry over this whole deal, and for absolutely no valid reason. My ONLY intent was to offer a place where those of us who are grieving can do so with the assistance of our God as we understand him. And I wanted a place where this could be done in a way that glorifies religion and not the opposite.

Finally, I never suggested that anyone cease to contribute to this group at all or in any way. There are many sub groups in Widows & Widowers. Some of you belong to them. And that offends me in no way at all.

I wish everyone a lovely week-end.

Joe

A need to have a flag of any kind - which by nature automatically excludes or makes some people less equal or welcome than others is a bizarre thing.

What binds us together is surely the circumstance that we find ourselves in - not our place or country of residence and not whether or not we are believers in christianity or are athiests. In saying this I have absolutely no problem with people who declare they share the same faith forming a subset - to support each other within the parameters of their faith. I do however have a problem with being alienated and my input having less value because of zenaphobia, Clearly as an Australian ....I don't fit the profile required regardless of my religious views.

I am very saddened by these threads over the last few days. In my opinion some of the views that have been expressed are neither christian or humanitarian and clearly lack tolerance of the views of others.

Debbie

I see no reason to attack Joe on founding a subgroup for people of faith to discuss their grief, problems, or whatever with each other. No one said anyone was leaving the original W/W group, just adding to their groups. Fish wanted to begin a group of atheists, or non-believers, and is certainly welcome to do so. What is the difference ~~ except that this one is Faith based?? As others have said, there are many subgroups on DS. Many people belong to several. A "big deal" is being made ~~ maybe just to cause controversy???
I don't believe that the picture should be a sign that "others" are not welcome. It appears that NO matter what picture Joe uses, someone will come up with a reason that it is controversial.

I love DS W/W and hate to see all of this conflict!!

Hugs to all, Joely

Well, golly gee, folks, I hope the new logo of a "fish" for the new group is not offensive to anyone. But it won't surprise me if it is. Sheeesh.

A fish is absolutely fine if you are a Christian living in the catacombs but don't then pretend that it is a symbol or a place for everyone who is a person of faith. Once again you are excluding everyone of every other faith.

Joely - I am not attacking anyone and reiterate that I have no problem at all with the formation of a subgroup of any kind whether it be for athiests or Christians - but what ever they are then describe and represent the group for what it is..... a subset of Christian widows and widowers (quite possibly limited to residents of the US...... and what ever other limitations the group decides to include. But in doing so ,lets not pretend we are tolerant or inclusive of others because clearly that is not the case.

When Curious Fish first posted his original post I didn't agree with his premise ......but as things have evolved I can see why he has felt this way and why he felt reluctant to discuss issues outside the " christian view"

It is all a bit sad really....I abhor religious intolerance .....or intolerance of any kind....and had thought this was a tolerant and supportive group. I won't be posting any more comments on this issue as in general it pulls us away from what binds us together.

Debbie

OKAY, I had said I was NOT going to post anymore comments on this thread, but for cryin' out loud!!!!

SANDGROPER ~ did you LOOK at the picture of the fish Joe posted???
It IS NOT the Christian "IXOUS" symbol...it is simply a picture of a colorful, tropical fish, such as one might see when diving a coral reef.

"Good Night, Irene!!!!", as my Gran used to say when exasperated.

Mmmmmmmmm, Debbie, (sandgroper):

For some reason, I seem to have really angered and upset you, and if so, I apologize, for that was never my intent. I have tried very, very hard to communicate to all, the purpose for the sub group that I created, and I have tried equally as hard to be as inclusionary as possible. I have acknowledged my insensitivities with having a Christian Flag, and I changed it to the U.S. Flag, and that was met with more vitriol and accusations of being exclusionary. And I even changed THAT. Now I have a serene picture of a yellow fish with orange stripes swimming in a reef. How this picture can be construed as divisive or exclusionary simply escapes me. I can only assume that you did not even take the time to look at the offending picture prior to your assault on me.

Again, I am sorry that I have so offended you that you have developed the irrational contempt that you have for me. I must have really hurt you, and that saddens me a great deal.

You are still cordially invited to participate in the Widows & Widowers of Faith sub-group if you wish. Who knows, you may even come to find that I am not such a mean, snobbish person as you believe me to be.

Regards,

Joe

John died 6/3/2008. He was on a fun ride when his quad flipped over sending his head crashing to a rock. I can still hear the screams from my 7 year old when she saw her daddy laying there motionless. This is why I am here.

Good luck with the group. We're all adults aren't we and able to choose whichever groups we wish to to find support and comfort.? What a pity that the likes of Ol Diz is so confrontational. Long may DS provide such great support from the very many wonderful people who come here. Peace, love and tolerance. Patrick

Well, Joe. I guess there are some people who must find the sub group 50 and older offensive as well. Unfortunately, there will always be someone who disagrees just for the sake of arguing. I'm sorry you've been so bombarded.

BTW, Ol Diz, He preached from both as well as mountain tops and boats.

I like both groups. Now I have two to check. Hooray for me!!!

I can see the problem with the American Flag. Who would have thought? But we do have UK and Australia etc.

Fish, you could think catacombs if you wanted.

How about a flower or butterfly.

I like the fish theme it goes with Matthew 4:19...And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Actually the entire chapter may apply here: http://www.mybiblescripture.com/Bible/l_op=ShowBible/cid=1033/trans=KJV.html
I wonder if an atheist calls him or herself fish, is that a cry for help?

Wow, I just don't feel comfortable on this forum anymore. Gosh, I am afraid to say anything. How sad. I thought Joe's group was a good idea. I too am a member of another sub group as well. When it was formed nobody took offence. I can't see how this should bother anybody. Because it does I sure do not feel very welcome here. Not at all. I sure don't need this stress at this time. I am going to stick to visiting my dear friends on their sites and stay away form here. This place has become very toxic. So sad what a few people who really don't give a hoot can do.