Sexual Abuse Support Group
Sexual abuse is a relative cultural term used to describe sexual relations and behavior between two or more parties which are considered criminally and/or morally offensive. Different types of sexual abuse involve: Non-consensual, forced physical sexual behavior such as rape, incest or sexual assault, or psychological forms of abuse, such as verbal sexual behavior or...
(crossposted from incest survivor's forum)
Trigger warning perhaps -
Hello everyone - hope this finds you well!
I have seen a lot of posts lately about whether or not a victim "should" have felt pleasure during the sexual acts that were being performed upon them; posts both in incest and sexual abuse forums. Thus I am cross posting this in both forums to get coverage of it.
One of the largest hurdles that survivors face is that they feel shame, blame and partial responsibility for the abuse because there was a facet of pleasure involved, or at least in many abuse cases - for some of us that was a large facet, for others a small or minor facet.
It really does not matter. Most abuse starts with a "grooming" stage - this is well documented in decades of research concerning childhood sexual abuse. During that "grooming" stage, there are various tricks that abuser's use and the consistency of these practices has always made me feel like there must be a "How to succeed as a Sexual Abuser" handbook out there somewhere.
The initial stage of grooming for abuse rarely starts with outright violence and mayhem - although in some cases this is true, the majority of abuse survivors speak of having been almost "seduced into the abuse". The abusers will try various little tricks - "I have a secret and I will tell you, but you cannot tell anyone" or "let's play a game that is only ours to play" or in my case, my abuser showed me hardcore porn then said something like "This is what adults do - you want to see if your an adult? - but, you can't tell anyone because YOU will get into trouble." This after hinting about it for weeks and "wetting" my curiosity to almost unbearable limits. He was very good - but he had a lot of practice it turns out, with other children around him (and he was only 12 year old when he started to abuse me!)
Back to grooming - once the abuser has the child's confidence and secrecy forged, then they can proceed in any way they want - though most do the progressions slowly into other forms of abuse, it can be almost instantaneous that they move from "friend" / "family" into "threat" / "violator". At those stages fear is the motivator to stay quiet and keep the secret - fear of being blames, worse treatment, loss of the relationship, etc.
And as a child I felt pleasure with the abuse. Sex is pleasurable - regardless of the age. But a child's mind is not formed enough to be able to set limits, determine right from wrong or understand such concepts of boundaries - that is why, regardless whether you eventually started to initiate sexual encounters with the abuser - you are NOT TO BLAME. You were working within the framework of a child's mind - and looking back with adult eyes and perspectives can make you feel shame and such "because you were asking for it" or you see yourself as a "willing participant" - this is just bullshit. Your abuser trained you for this. Had you not been abused, you would not know what to even ask for.....you had no part of the abuse, regardless of your reactions.
Yes, I almost always ejaculated during an abuse episode - once I was old enough to do so. But then, my body was stimulated and if some part of it had not had a pleasure aspect to it, I would have been less likely to allow the abuse to continue, even as a child, even though my first abuser was very threatening after the grooming stage was over.
There were aspects of pain - in the later stages of the abuse, almost all of it was painful, but I was still excited physically, because these things were interrelated in my child's mental framework.
So, if you feel even the slightest bit of shame or blame due to your possibly enjoying a part of the abuse, or perhaps, in time, initiating it, you are STILL NOT TO BLAME. The more knowledgeable abuser started that train rolling and you were the victim - no matter what your response or reaction - you were still the victim here and just following the normal reactions to stimuli.
As I posted earlier - if an adult entices a child to smoke pot or try addictive drugs and the child wants to experience that euphoria again - we don't blame the child, but the one who gave them the drugs to begin with. Why is sex any different?
So, how many here were "seduced into the abuse"? And if you were, do you feel shame at your actions or reactions to what happened to you? I do hope you do not and if you do, I hope you understand that this is just a part of you that still needs focus and work. By taking ANY of the blame for such, you are letting the abuser off the hook - all this was their fault - none was yours.
I wish I knew how many abuser's in therapy have told me that the child was "asking for it" - but the reality is, a child will not ask for that which they do not know exists.
Sorry, this is so long, but this is a huge stumbling block for many survivors - don't let it remain one in your life.
All my best -
Refuse2quit
Trigger warning perhaps -
Hello everyone - hope this finds you well!
I have seen a lot of posts lately about whether or not a victim "should" have felt pleasure during the sexual acts that were being performed upon them; posts both in incest and sexual abuse forums. Thus I am cross posting this in both forums to get coverage of it.
One of the largest hurdles that survivors face is that they feel shame, blame and partial responsibility for the abuse because there was a facet of pleasure involved, or at least in many abuse cases - for some of us that was a large facet, for others a small or minor facet.
It really does not matter. Most abuse starts with a "grooming" stage - this is well documented in decades of research concerning childhood sexual abuse. During that "grooming" stage, there are various tricks that abuser's use and the consistency of these practices has always made me feel like there must be a "How to succeed as a Sexual Abuser" handbook out there somewhere.
The initial stage of grooming for abuse rarely starts with outright violence and mayhem - although in some cases this is true, the majority of abuse survivors speak of having been almost "seduced into the abuse". The abusers will try various little tricks - "I have a secret and I will tell you, but you cannot tell anyone" or "let's play a game that is only ours to play" or in my case, my abuser showed me hardcore porn then said something like "This is what adults do - you want to see if your an adult? - but, you can't tell anyone because YOU will get into trouble." This after hinting about it for weeks and "wetting" my curiosity to almost unbearable limits. He was very good - but he had a lot of practice it turns out, with other children around him (and he was only 12 year old when he started to abuse me!)
Back to grooming - once the abuser has the child's confidence and secrecy forged, then they can proceed in any way they want - though most do the progressions slowly into other forms of abuse, it can be almost instantaneous that they move from "friend" / "family" into "threat" / "violator". At those stages fear is the motivator to stay quiet and keep the secret - fear of being blames, worse treatment, loss of the relationship, etc.
And as a child I felt pleasure with the abuse. Sex is pleasurable - regardless of the age. But a child's mind is not formed enough to be able to set limits, determine right from wrong or understand such concepts of boundaries - that is why, regardless whether you eventually started to initiate sexual encounters with the abuser - you are NOT TO BLAME. You were working within the framework of a child's mind - and looking back with adult eyes and perspectives can make you feel shame and such "because you were asking for it" or you see yourself as a "willing participant" - this is just bullshit. Your abuser trained you for this. Had you not been abused, you would not know what to even ask for.....you had no part of the abuse, regardless of your reactions.
Yes, I almost always ejaculated during an abuse episode - once I was old enough to do so. But then, my body was stimulated and if some part of it had not had a pleasure aspect to it, I would have been less likely to allow the abuse to continue, even as a child, even though my first abuser was very threatening after the grooming stage was over.
There were aspects of pain - in the later stages of the abuse, almost all of it was painful, but I was still excited physically, because these things were interrelated in my child's mental framework.
So, if you feel even the slightest bit of shame or blame due to your possibly enjoying a part of the abuse, or perhaps, in time, initiating it, you are STILL NOT TO BLAME. The more knowledgeable abuser started that train rolling and you were the victim - no matter what your response or reaction - you were still the victim here and just following the normal reactions to stimuli.
As I posted earlier - if an adult entices a child to smoke pot or try addictive drugs and the child wants to experience that euphoria again - we don't blame the child, but the one who gave them the drugs to begin with. Why is sex any different?
So, how many here were "seduced into the abuse"? And if you were, do you feel shame at your actions or reactions to what happened to you? I do hope you do not and if you do, I hope you understand that this is just a part of you that still needs focus and work. By taking ANY of the blame for such, you are letting the abuser off the hook - all this was their fault - none was yours.
I wish I knew how many abuser's in therapy have told me that the child was "asking for it" - but the reality is, a child will not ask for that which they do not know exists.
Sorry, this is so long, but this is a huge stumbling block for many survivors - don't let it remain one in your life.
All my best -
Refuse2quit
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Middy is off for a bit so if anyone needs a CL please just give me a shoutSending a big hug...xo
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I feel so dirty and used I was drunk and passed out at a party when I came around some guy was on top of me rapeing me he covered my mouth and told me to shut up afterwards he got up and got dressed and said I better not tell anyone I found my friend and reported that I had been raped after having medical checks and them getting DNA I've taken the morning after pill IAM just so depressed and...
Refuse2quit
Preg, from rape .. And an idea about body reactions.
The body reaction one is.. If a person. (Male of female ) walks up to a male ( for this example ) and without question sticks their hand down the males pants and starts rubbing or what ever abc the penis starts to get hard according to (topic at hand. ( person)) since it was hard then the male was a willing party to being molested. No matter what the male (victim) did during the attack, whether he really liked it or not, according to "X" then he totally wanted it.. ... I can't I have to stop with this one...
I happen to remember a few months back there was a big shot on the news who claimed that if the woman got preg due to rape then if couldn't be rape, and she 'enjoyed ' it
How in the heck can any of this be right...
I'm so sorry, it all sounded so much better in my head.
Didn't come out as calm as I was hoping...
Sorry :(
I think you're talking about that Republican politician who said that women can't get pregnant from "legitimate" rape, whatever that could possibly be. He caught a whole lot of scorn and derision for that. So the good news is that it became a national joke - that's how little he was taken seriously. Something to be cheerful about!
The truth is until the brain is fully formed (late teens to mid 20's) we can't really understand what happened and see why the child deserves zero blame or should not feel any shame regardless of circumstances. Period. Unfortunately so many have felt shame and blame for many years from decisions they'd made at a much earlier age about themselves that's self condemning and tied up with much emotion. Those beliefs made in childhood sadly are very resistant to change and intellectual understanding doesn't change it. Thus many, many survivors go right on feeling shame and continue self condemnation ...which causes survivors to get stuck in their healing as one can't truly heal while still blaming the child. It is never ever the child's fault . No exceptions!!
Thanks for sharing on this importand subject that is one of the most devastating aspects of sexual abuse that can and does last a lifetime for too many survivor and just doesn't have to ...I know as I carried the shame all my life until just a few years ago. I was dead wrong! Releasing the shame and self blame allows true healing to begin.
I do hope that this has helped someone....it is a topic of much discussion in one way or another. To think that the victim is to blame is sort of like thinking that an innocent bystander who get injured in a gang shoot out it somehow to blame for being where they are or for not being able to protect themselves. As children we are those innocent bystanders who are abused because we are there, vulnerable and available.
For some reason when we bring SEX into the equation, all parties are assumed to have some responsibility - again, just bullshit in my opinion. And again, just because there are orgasms on the part of the victim in no way infers consent - this is just a normal body reaction to stimulation.....nothing more. And yes, a person who is scared can be aroused - without being a willing participant.
I agree - until we drop the self-blame and guilt, healing is mostly superficial and shallow - the deep healing that needs to take place had to include complete self-exoneration to the acts that occurred. I believe we have to unconditionally love ourselves - it really isn't even about "forgiving" ourselves, as that forgiveness is given when there is fault or guilt on ones part - there is nothing to forgive in these cases, except to forgive ourselves from having taken un-warranted blame for something we had NOTHING to be blamed for. We were the victims, not the perpetrators and that is SO important to remember.
All my best to all....
Refuse2quit
I'm at the begining of healing, I first have to remember the trauma stuff. However I do remember some of the grooming, definately remember the scare tactic (can never forget a cold icy gun to the head) and I am starting to let go of some blame however he did ask me if I wanted to learn about sex and I did say yes.
Is there a way to save posts? this is one I think I may would like to re-read.
Thank you Refuse.
You are very welcome and my I offer to assist as possible - I check in every other day or so and if you would like to PM me feel free - or just post if that helps also.
What kid wouldn't say "yes" if ask if they would like to learn about sex? Most kids want to feel like they are being treated like they are more adult than they are or they want to learn about 'secret' stuff....especially with all the commercials and television shows promoting sex like it is a new discovery or something.
Even if you ask for him to have sex with you outright, you were a child. There is a reason that we have "age of accountability" laws - those laws that say minors can not give consent for such things as sex or watching porno or drinking alcohol. If you are a child and an adult asks you "do you want to know about sex" - the wrong is with the adult that ask the TOTALLY inappropriate question....not the child who does not have the mental understanding or emotional development to consent to such. If someone asks a child if they want a drink of beer, the problem is not that the child said "yes" - the problem is the fact that an adult offered it to a child.
I for one can tell you from personal experience - shed the guilt and blame as soon as you can. It is wasted energy and emotion, needlessly wasted time you need to spend on healing, not on heaping responsibility on yourself for being naive and buying into a predator's 'game'. Don't blame yourself for being curious - most of us were. But, someone took advantage of that and the blame is totally on the abuser, not the victim.
Share all you want - that's what this forum is designed for!
All my best
Refuse2quit
I am so glad that so many seem to be profiting from this post. It is SO important that we drop the unneeded baggage of guilt and shame. As I told another member in a PM, when we are children we do not have the experience or teaching of society which tells us what is "right and wrong" or "good or bad". And as such, we can not be held responsible for our actions as child victims - and if you were an adult when the abuse happened, we also have to consider how influential the abusers can be - how they use all the tricks in the book to get compliance - either holding power over us (death threats, being forced, etc) or use reward systems ("I'll give you anything you want" "you will be my special love", etc.) or a combination of both. Even adults are able to be influenced to do things that they know they shouldn't - we see this in so many people who are coerced into committing various crimes that is not consistent with their past life patterns.
I used to say that we should learn to "forgive ourselves" - but I don't agree with that now, as "forgiveness" is given for having done something wrong....if you do not know it is wrong, or are not in complete ability to say "no", then there is no need for forgiving yourself as you did nothing wrong. You were victimized and it sounds often when we are looking back we judge our younger selves through more knowledgeable eyes and with a more informed mind. That is not really fair to any of us, as at the time we were doing what we felt we should do or what we trusted was alright to do. Again, this is all part and parcel of abuse and it's aftermath.
My hope for others is to stop re-victimizing themselves with undeserved shame and blame. You were not the one that committed a crime and have NO reason to further pay for the acts of another. Instead of forgiveness, accept yourself, understand you did what you did because of someone else's influence and deceit, and start loving yourself as someone who survived a horrible act and have gone on to live life as best you can. And it does get better when you remove the unnecessary and useless response of blame and shame for what happened to you.
I do hope that this post continues to provide insight and reinforcement to those who struggle with the guilt and shame responses - please do away with these knee-jerk reactions through counseling, lots of self talk, developing realistic expectations of what you had control of at the time you were abused along with any other means of overcoming this residue of your violation.
All my best - keep marching forward on your journeys and let nothing sidetrack or delay your growth!
Refuse2quit
I am so sorry to hear that you have been through so many years of being held hostage in your own home - and that is what guilt and shame can do to you - it can hold you in places that you have no desire to remain in.
Shame and guilt, for many of us seem to be inherent with abuse. And that is exactly what the abusers want. As long as we are ashamed or feel guilty we are less likely to take up for ourselves or reach out for help. We become cemented where we are, out of fear that someone may find out and "our" guilt is revealed. There is nothing to this except another technique that is used to keep us quiet, submissive and compliant.
Even after the physical abuse stops, the emotional abuse can continue if we allow ourselves to hold onto the responsibility that is not ours to own. It wasn't until I was able to realize that I had to let all of this go, to form respect for myself and learn to love me, even if I had perceived "faults" or "weaknesses" - not until then was I was able to completely blame the people who were the true guilty ones.
And that realization was SO empowering!!! It allowed me to take back that which was taken from me - until that time, I did not feel "worthy" of freedom or love.
Take it from someone who has spent WAAAYYY too much time in that particular rut - nothing good comes from feeling personally responsible for someone's else's choices and actions.
All my best -
Refuse2quit
I actually just cross-posted some of what I remembered in this group and in the PTSD group. It feels strange and somewhat shameful to recognize what happened and redefine it in my mind as "abuse".