Bill,

I advise caution as I am making up that you have taken too many liberties in interpreting Choose's Post.

The technique that you are referring too as conflict resolution is called Mirroring in therapeutic circles. Choose in no way has excluded this process in his explanation of developing boundaries around his wife's anger. In fact, boundaries facilitate mirroring.

Boundary work involves recognizing that one's reality is different than the other person's. Communication skills or not, the point Choose is trying to convey (other than thanks) is that his boundaries are becoming functional as he better understands not only the origin of his wife's trauma and subsequent anger but the dynamics surrounding trauma repetition, triggers, and trauma reactions. He in the process experiences proper remorse and is now capable of adequate amends.

It is also natural for wounded individuals without functional boundaries to start feeling abandoned when someone in therapy begins to set functional boundaries around them. I guess I should not be surprised that is happening on this board as a vicarious process.

Again, Choose is describing spiritual that is taking place within him. He will actually be getting closer and closer to being capable of true intimacy with his wife. No matter how skillful he is at communicating, he cannot get through a wall of anger until that wall begins to crumble. This is the first step towards that crumbling. In fact, I dare say that he is now more capable than ever of seeing her for the precious person she is and feel true compassion for her pain from current and past trauma precisely because he will no longer get defensive the minute he senses her anger. Instead, he can keep his cool and listen without waiting to formulate a defense or going through toxic shame. He can also let her know his reality without trying to impose it on her.

Getting to a point where boundaries are functional is very empowering phenomenon.

Kudos to you again Choose. Glad to see the healing taking hold.

Soberone

"did not even once compromise my standard of never being alone with a woman other than my wife"

Feel proud of this Choose. It is what struck me the most in your post...very simply, I wish my h felt this was important...

Choose, I am sorry if I misunderstood. I only wish the best for you and your wife and am trying to understand why she won't come with you in recovery.
My perspective is as a wife who tried very hard to get my SA into recovery and was only told it was all my fault which of course led to me giving up on recoverying with him. Like Trina it was very hard for be being afraid it was about me, that I was not good enough, which pushed me into toxic shame and rage, because not only his actions but his words confirmed my own fears of inadequacy. Which I do not think I can get out of, at least where he is concerned. Even tho he has not recovered I have so far to know I am good enough for me and for others but not for him.

I wonder if you went through the whole defensive blame her and accuse her when she found out before you got into recovery, as my H did to me? If so, she may have been pushed into this place where her own self esteem tells her she is good enough, but she does not feel good enough for you now, and that is why she says you are the one with the problem not her.

Also, while all of us have issues that we could improve on, all of those issues are seen as things that could have been worked out more easily without all the rage if our SAs had tried before acting out, so in our minds they pale in comparison to our SAs issues. It is so sad that more SAs and PAs cannot get help before they cross lines that bring on the rage that is so hard to get by.

While I know everyone should do their own work looking at themselves and not worrying about the others' recovery, and we should not think that our own recovery will fix the other person. But maybe she could be drawn into recovery by telling her you know the really big issue here is your addiction and not her, but that it would help you immensely and your marriage if she would get help even if it is only to really understand the problem and how what she does only makes it worse. Clearly the idea that there is something she did wrong only drives her into fear and toxic shame and rage. Which is why it is all your problem to her. I am afraid trying to keep telling her she is defective and needs help only makes her more scared and angry. Much like her saying it is all your problem makes you scared and addictive.

Gosh it is such a viscious cycle between spouses once it gets started....so sad for all of us. And I hope I don't sound like I am suggesting you trick her into recovery though it may seem that way by getting her to go to help you instead of herself, but if it gets her there so she can learn more about herself and let other people help her see her own issues instead of you, it may be easier for her..and getting her in the door to recovery is the point you are struggling with.

I know for me even though I went to recovery without my H, it was still very hard to look at myself...my own issues center around being raised in a family where if you made a mistake no one loved you so it is important to be perfect and do nothing wrong and any criticism or suggestion that I did something wrong puts meinto the toxic fear and shame which turns outwardly to anger to defend myself. I wonder if your wife is the same? If so, looking at herself is going to be very hard. Admitting she needs recovery for herself, nearly impossible at this point.

I intitally went to recovery to fix my H.....did not work of course but got me to look at myself and on the road to recovery. I guess my H is stuck where your wife is, unable to look at himself. I went to recovery to fix him, but it started me fixing myself. He went to therapy to fix our marriage but it did not work as he could not come around to seeing he had to fix his own issues before any marriage could be fixed. Unfortunately the therapist went along with his idea that he could fix it without fixing himself, which stopped the process dead and may be irreversibly damaged. She put the blame on me which only made him like your wife...the problem is you not me. And it made me more hostile...luckily I was in so much pain I turned to a new therapist and support groups for my own rock bottom and trying to help him helped me to gain some recovery.

I am sorry Choose, it seems you and I are stuck in the same place but on opposite sides, each seeking our own recovery and wanting our partner to come along but unable to reach them....I wish you all the luck...keep working on yourself..you are doing great!

You have raised a beacon of hope for all SA's. Congratulations, and be well.

Bill: Keen insight again. Thank you. Sometimes I think the point gets lost in the convoluted "she makes me do it" thing. I'm glad to see that you are able to see it. Congrats! That really is fantastic!

for me the worst thing my H did when we were having discussions was to say nothing...to sit as if he could care less about anything I said...no emotion, no pain or tears on his side....even the rationalizations and blame were better than silence as I could try to come to understanding bewteen us for us to hash our different viewpoints...tho at times it was volatile...far better would have beenbe able to at least say something like he was trying to understand my feelings and it would help if I did not yell....or even yell at me if you must but when you are done I'd really like to try to calmly talk about this so we can help each other instead of yelling and getting no where......unfortunately for me when the yelling stopped and I calmed down there was nothing but silence......I love that you are trying so hard...I pray your wife will join us here so the other spouses can support her and comfort her too....I feel that she needs comfort very strongly..her spirit is in great pain...I pray she will let someone give it to her, as it seems clear she is too afraid to let you comfort her yet.

Wow, there has been alot of processing from my little babystep of growth.

I am painfully aware that everyone on this post, and sadly all the old timers have a perception of my wife that is much more negative than is true. I know this perception has come from my pain and the bias that pain causes in this journey. My reaction to the momentary character defects that we have often used to rub against one another, has often been very harsh and disrespectful, and more likely than not, painted a much more negative picture of my wife than is true.

So, as an homage to my beautiful wife, who may choose to be angry by this breach of her privacy, but cannot deny the truth of this description. Here is a smal glimpse of my Flower;

Brave - She has faced incredibly fearful things in her life with amaizing bravery.

Determined - Her goals have sometimes been met by shear force. Against me, against the worlds disrespect, against her own exhaustion, she does not quit when she committs to something, including me.

Dutiful - Her need to do what she feels is her job overrides her fear, anger, circomstances and she shows up.

Tireless - She can not sleep uless the days order is restored.

Compassionate - The reare moments she lets me know she feels for someone is always matched up with some action to love, server, or care for that person.

Graceful - She decideds to give or server someones need and then the work of meeting that need flows like a glistening stream of water.

Tough - I am amaized by how much she has survived in this life. I would be dead.

Generous - The other day we tipped a sweet and obviously needy grandmother/waitress. I asked how much, she said $100.

Wikipedia-ish - Who can tell where she gets all her inforamation, but she knows amaizing things about amaizing things.

Polite - Everyone that knows her, knows this is all I have to say about this one.

A beautiful hostess - At christmas the "Oh I will just throw something together" party looked like a wedding banquet.

A fierce mother - 3-4 hours of sleep for six weeks helping our baby boy learn to breathe in the neonatal ICU.

A fierce survivor - 3 years 8 months in a concentration camp in the jungles of Cambodia under the watchful eyes Khmer Rouge soldiers in the killing fields. She actually said, "We hid exactly like that in the rice fileds." when we watched the Killing Fields movie together.

Elegant - Her perfect teeth, sincere eyes, glowing presence, and gentle walk matches her respectful considerate manners.

This is a short list of the true authentic wife of Choose. The determination that allowed her to stand against things that humble most people that truly know her, is also the thing that holds her back from forgiveness and recovery, and Praise God has kept her in our marriage in the face of my addict.

I truly, deeply, passionately love her. I have not felt any different since the second time I saw her.

I hope that those here that know me can maybe see through my anger and fear into the other side of my story, the other half of my oneness, and the completion of my heart. She truly is the most beautiful woman on this planet, and I am not just saying that because she is my wife. Others have met her, and she really is this beautiful!

Some day, I hope she comes to the place where she is ready to use DS, And when she searches through old posts I have made, I hope this affirms her heart.

Amen..that was awesome Choose....How can she not come around someday when she has a man who can so eloquently express his awareness of her totally as a person....It would be a shame for her to miss out on being able to truly believe that is how you feel and allow herself to be loved. Keep inviting her to DS...she already has friends here who want to meet her and support her..

AMEN Dptrials,

What a beautiful letter Choose.

I want to stand up to the few who are still confused by Choose's post and replies made by Soberone, myself and others congratulating him on his progress. It is not appropriate to make negative assumptions about another persons sharing on this board. Always clarify if you are not sure before you begin chastising.

It is not appropriate to sarcastically comment on another person's reply when you are not sure what they are talking about. Again... clarify. I am referring to the comment made about Soberone's use of the phrase "his reality being imposed on her." In Pia Melody's writings on addiction and codependance (a pioneer in this area) this is referring to empathy...to make it simple...read her books if this still doesn't make since. Between Sober and Choose it made since ans they both are well versed in this type of recovery.

And I am sorry SheenRe, I love you to death but your situation with your h is different than what Choose described about his wife. If I were not a long time member here I would easily have been confused by your comment thinking that Choose was like your h and being abusive, rude and inconsiderate when in fact if you reread the post and understand the model of therapy Choose uses for recovery Choose was trying to explain a huge step he has made toward being relational toward his wife. I know this can be a very subtle difference in communication so if you are still missing the positive that has happened here let me outline it....

I. Positive listening...
*From Pia Melody...
A. listen with empathy without imposing your own reality.
B. do not interrupt
C. do not go "one down" in shame or "one up" in superiority.
D. do not manipulate or try to control
E. set your own listening boundaries absorbing what is true and what is not.
F. listen in order to "know" the other person.
II. Positive resolve of conflicts
*From "The Seven Principles of Marriage" [the four horsemen]...sorry can't remember the author...
1. listen without formulating a defence
2. do not respond with sarcasm
3. do not act, ignore or convey a contemptuous attitude.
4. do not wall off, shut down, or ignore.

What you are describing about your h SheenRe confuses this matter as from my understanding of your past posts as well as this one your h violates these rules for these reasons....

1. he is not listening, he is walling you off and ignoring you.
2. he is being contemptuous of you by this act.
3. he is acting superior.

This is not relational according to the model of recovery my h, myself, and Choose as well as other "old timers" here who all have made positive comments regarding Chooses post. Being as you and your h follow a different model for recovery I can not comment on it on whether how this works for you. I only know that it hurts you. And I am sorry for that. But it is not the same as what Choose is talking about. I would encourage you to start a new thread regarding this matter so as to not confuse this conversation but to also get answers to your own situation. So I really am sorry your are being treated this way. I hope and pray you will find a way to communicate with your h.

Lorilou

Lori: Commentary noted. I'll remember what you've said. And thanks for your input...it is always appreciated. Yes, I've heard of Pia Melody's work. I'm sure that she is helpful to some. And that is a good thing...anything that works.

However, some of what I hear of it...here...seems a little strange...or perhaps a little cold..in this context...perhaps a little to insensitive for my taste regarding the hurt and confusion of a spouse and their reaction, however misconstrued they may be, to the injuries imposed on them by their mates. Or perhaps that's just the way it sounds. Either way, it creates some confusion within me about what really is sensitive communication. If that is wrong...then I do apologize.

However, on the whole, I d think that I was more concerned about where Choose came in his initial post...from when he made his commentary about my situation. And that it was somehow a bad thing that I voice what I truly feel when confronted with my Hs behviors; or communication about my feelings regarding those "specific" behaviors.

In fact, Choose addressed my situation with my H...or more accurately...my reaction to my Hs behaviors and attitudes as the "burning him in effigy" thing. True?

I believe that the definition of that word is
1. (Fine Arts & Visual Arts / Art Terms) a portrait of a person, esp as a monument or architectural decoration
2. a crude representation of someone, used as a focus for contempt or ridicule and often hung up or burnt in public (often in the phrases burn or hang in effigy)"

I feel that is just a little insensitive to the plight of the injured...in this case me personally. I guess one should never say anything but what is good about their relationship and if that is the case then that is all I should hear here too? I felt that his commentary was questionable..if not ambiguous?

However, I think he also receives some benefit regarding my thinking process which results in my feelings on the subject matter. At least I hope it does...as his does mine...whether foreign or understandtable. So, I hope that he was offering that commentary as a thank you for hearing someone else's truth, however foreign to his own thinking and feeling processes. And, since I do accept his as such, I reply.

And from whatever "recovery modem" one operates...realizing the flaws and misunderstanding and insight into the reactions of our partners or anyone..on both sides...is the only thing that ever gets anything clear from my perspective. But, then again...I could be wrong...won't have been the first time.

And for the record, more for Choose than for your commentary...I have yet to ever burn my Hs entire personality, nor behavior, with total contempt or riducle of his "overall" character. Just the parts that I personally feel deserve that particular attention. As that is the problem being batted about here?

In fact, I think that my H is MUCH more able to communicate affectively and clearly than most here. And, is also much more sensitive to the injured's plight as well. He's far ahead of the pack there. I know that from what I read here. And, I'm certainly glad for that. See, he has some really good qualities too...and that is a couple of them.

And also, from reading Choose's posts I can see where he butts up against his wife's reactions, much as he does mine....and he probably reacts much the same way to my feelings as he does hers. Perhaps he feels that she is burning him in effigy too? As does he believe that I am doing the same to my H.

And that neither his wife, nor myself, holds anything at all but contempt overall for their mates. Which in my case is not true at all. I do hold the attitudes and behaviors that allowed my H to do as he did in contempt. And, if I were to do that to him...I feel that I would deserve contempt for those actions too.

And I think that because I hold those behaviors and attitudes as contemptible, that is just unacceptable to Choose's sensibilities and understanding of what we "should" be feeling from his view. And I understand that..it's ok too. He can only understand what he does...as I can only understand what I understand. And somewhere between the two directly conflicting opinions and feelings lies the truth?

My feelings regarding that subject matter are submitted in the vein of sharing views of feelings from BOTH sides...that of the perp...and that of the injured. Hoping that in the sharing one gets a better view of the overall picture. The clearer truth?

And if I propose a question, or commentary, or invitation for further explanation, then I expect that it would be seen as just that...a query...a request...to further clarify a statement made.

And if Soberone took that to mean that I am being sarcastic to him...I didn't intend to be. Just curious about the whole picture of how that works....as it sounds cold an impersonal in this particular context. If he took it as sarcasm...I do apologize. I don't know everything...and I haven't read everything on everyone's particular theory or model for recovery. And so curiosity reigns King. And, I think that Soberone has a lot of info in his head to share.

I really feel that Sober is more often than not quite capable of explaining a theory or modem of behavioral change. And hoped that he might comment to me, personally, regarding his understanding of that mechanism. I didn't want to affect Choose's newly found abilities and growth pattern. See, I hope that he does well. I do hope that he knows that. I know that he does me...however little he understands my thinking on this subject matter. And, I appreciate it...even if it is sometimes sarcastic.

I didn't mean to come off to Soberone as sarcastic...but as perplexed about the whole mechanism...and was meant to be a question of respect for his knowledge and not sarcasism. So, if he took it that way...or you did...or even Choose...I do apologize for that. It seems that when I try to not be wordy, I fail to commuicate well. So, I'm either a "blabberer" as Choose described himself at times, or I'm too short and seemingly sarcastic. Ahhh, communication...a boon..or a catastrophe!

And you know that I respect and love the person you are too. So, forgive me if I hurt you in some way. And if you can chalk it up to dasterdly bad communication skills, please do. And please offer my aplogies to Sober too. I didn't mean to make him feel disrespected at all...quite the contrary.

SheenRe,

I do understand your anger, and I understand how it is confusing to you that I am growing to the place where I can give the blame for my wives anger back to her. First let me appologize to you forthe effagy comment. This can not come across as positively as I feel, It was in a sureal way a complement in that you represent the extream of giving your emotions to your husband. When you rage at him for his behavior, it sounds like he did it yesterday, and no appology will ever be accepted. You admit that you have and should have no humility because you did nothing wrong. My realiy is that I had more resentments toward my wife than anyone I know, and the truth is that I contributed in some small or large way to them all. So who am I to resent her reactions, when I contributed to them. Once I realized this, I could be humble enough to forgive her. And yes as an SA there are things my wife has done that she needs forgiveness for.

When I read your posts, I read anger and enitlement for being "more than" your husband based on what he has done.

He owes you ammends, the problem is that in your anger and resentment, no ammends will suffice to restore your relationship. Any more than you could have enough sex to satisfy his addiction.

.... I have to go but I have more.....

Choose: So what did she do that gave you sufficient angst to commit adultry? My H has done what he has done...and I personally could find no reason whatsoever to treat him that way...even though he did that to me...and I think that is the most viable reason...yes? So, I fail to see what she has done that would lead you to do that to her. What is that reason?

I'm sure I'm not perfect and some of my doings in life don't necessarily thrill my H. But, I did nothing that warrants infidelity. Nor do I think I would ever do that. So, petty little nonsense...is petty little nonsense...to me. My H has never been perfect either...even outside the infidelity issue...and I don't expect that he would be...nor that I would be. But, for me infidelity is the bottom of the barrell, the most hurtful thing a mate can do...and so I wonder...do these petty little disturbances warrant such action...ever? It doesn't for me. Not even infidelity deserves infidelity to me. So, petty little things hardly are even worth the mentioning.

And for the record, I don't rage at my H any longer. I do however let him know if he does something to annoy that old injury. I set clear boundaries there...get near that...and you'll regret that decision.

Nor do I forgive him. Nor do I ever intend to. I see no reason to do that. I do see a reason to accept that he asked a chance to make up for what he did and to be as he should have been all along. I agreed to allow that effort. I don't see that as forgiveness at all. I see that as a chance...grace...goodwill...and gift to him to amend his ways...and that is all.

I cannot in good conscience forgive anyone who tells me that they "knew" they would hurt me and chose to do so anyway. I think that's not accidental...that's intentional. How does one forgive an intentional injury? I think that seems rather wacky?

A chance is not forgiveness...is it? Perhaps it is. If so, then I've done that already. And if not, I never intend to either. And, I don't think that there is any necessity in that. If you do, what is the necessity?

So,

I can and do take responsibility for my actions that deeply hurt my wife. She did not deserve what I did to her. Those are facts. What I am growing into is that she owns her anger. It is appropriate for her to be angry at me, but she must own her anger or she is trapped by it. She chooses to be angry, and she chooses to fogive, and she chooses to accept my appology or to ask for 100 more. These are her choices not mine. At some point, my guilt and remorse is no longer useful. Being remorseful to free her from her anger does not work. It only works to heal me brought humility before God. The reality is that my sin was against God and God alone, so paying pentance to her in an attempt to take responsibility for her anger and do something about it for her, can not work. Because she owns her emotions. It is painfully obvious that you want your husband to take responsibiliy for "making" you angry. But if he had hat much power over your emotions he would "make" you happy just as easily. And he can not do that.

Lorilou has the impression that your husband is abusive, unrepentant, and uncaring. What I think is he is repentant, no acting out, being gentle with you, but you can not admit those hints because you would loose your ability to blame him for your anger.

ok pickin on choose again.lol no, but really, I don't understand how you sinned against God but not your wife? That seems odd to me...
How can itnot be a sin against your spouse if you are unfaithful in some way?

also God may not require pentance, altho some religion say he does...the whole hail marys and such for confession...but people are not God, they do require pentance or amends or whatever for injury....ask all the people in court suing for damages...personally I think the idea that you cannot sue for emotional injury or pain and suffering in divorce court is ridiculous...strangers can hurt you and you can sue for your amends but a spouse can hurt you and you cannot sue?

So the courts will not protect spouses in a marriage when you divorce. But I think if a spouse is willing to stay and try, pentance or amends is the only way to earn forgiveness. Humans are not God and we need something to regain the balance in the relatinship which has been lost...an marriage without equity cannot survive any more than any other relationship does without it. So you can't legislate the amends or demand, the must be freely given like everything else in a marriage...but I do think they are needed.

Also while I know if you are doing all you can and she stays angry, it is her choice, but clearly what you did caused her anger at least about this issue. so you had power to crush her, because she gave it to you when you married.....she also gave you the power to make her happy, which you could have chosen to have done by being faithful.....and she can take either back whenever she wants...but you do have the power...of course she may have been made angry or happy by other things in life as well including her own issues,

the idea that someone cannot make someone else happy or angry is just silly.........it is another copout for accepting responsibility for the transgression....as well as saying you are giving her back her anger......people are not angry just cause they want to be, nor can they stop feeling their feelings because someone else refuses to take the responsiblility or make amends...If you do not get angry you must be a rock......

Everyone has issues, but I am sorry, ALL the offended parties agree that our spouses had the power to make us happy, and would have if they had chosen to deal with their issues in a healthy way instead of acting out...and ALL of the SAs had the power to make us angry, which we would not be if they chose healthy ways before acting out.

Our issues do NOT cause our anger about sex addiction, the SA causes it by acting out harming us and our anger serves to protect us and keep us from more injury...more than likely it will stay until we feel safe and no longer need to protect ourselves, but unfortunately to some extent will be always be there if we stay with the SA, since we cannot cure the addiction. People who survive this probably come to the point where they are able to be angry at the addiction rather than the person...but only when the addiction is really under control.

I know you are taking responsibility and making amends, and no it may never be enough.....I am wondering what your wife has done that you think she needs to be forgiven for? I am searching my mind, but cannot think of anything I ever did to my husband that would require him to frogive me? There were things he perceived as rejection or times when he feared abandonment, but that was his misperception not because he was rejected or threatened with abandonment...so my H may well think I have done things that need to be forgiven, but that is only his misperception and failure to communicate and be intimate with me...in fact he was adept at sidestepping and lying in the face of my requesting intimacy or communicating.

Now of course I acted in ways I am not proud of when I discovered and was accused and lied to some more.....but I think my response was warranted for the length and depth of the injury.....others have certainly done murder for what I found.....I will start worrying I guess if I need forgiveness if and when he ever asks me for mine or shows some interest in doing something to earn it for his actions.

I think also an important distinction is that I have already forgiven him for being an addict, I know he did not choose it any more than I chose to be married to an SA, although people say I did, or any issues i have from my childhood.......... the actions cannot be forgiven without apology and amends tho....

I wonder if your wife is still hung up because she is angry at the addiction and has not forgiven the actions, but maybe she has forgiven you for being an addict? Oddly, the closer I got to forgiving him, at times I would go right back to being angry....maybe at myself for forgiving? weird but again, the fear is overwhelming for her if she nears forgiveness and thenthinks her forgiveness will get her hurt again, so the anger defense comes back.....she may be waffling there....but if you continue as you are she hopefully will improve....

and please don't fool yourself that your continued remorse is no longer useful...it is still useful to her...probably required if she is to get over waffling between forgiveness and anger...keep showering her with all the love she needs...if you think God requires you to stay in the marriage, is it too much to think he may still require you to be remorseful to your wife....

like you said marriages mostly end becasue of lack of intimacy...when you give up trying to be vulnerable and intimate by being givign up being remorseful you will risk going back to no intimacy...it is a day to day requirement to keep the marriage, not a need with an expiration date. particularly when faced with trying to save a marriage that by all rights was broken and should have ended and would have for most...it is a gift that she is still there each day....being thankful for that may help you deal with her anger...good luck choose...luv ya!

Choose: I'm sure that God has already forgiven you. As you have repented for breaking at least one of his commandments. But, your wife isn't God...and your actions also hurt her. I don't really think that much we can do can hurt God at all. He really is omnipitent? He needs us for nothing at all.

But, I do think that he was concerned about how we can hurt each other...because we aren't God and we can be hurt? So, if you're right with God, your relationship with him is restored...with Him. I'm so glad he'll let us do that.

But that has little to do with your wife does it? She isn't God. If your marriage is with God, then it is restored. But, if it is with your wife, then finding what might makee it feel restored for her is the issue isn't it? You never felt that it was destroyed, even when acting out, because for you it wasn't part of your relationship with your wife...it was just for you. But, for her, it does have to do with the way she feels about that? Or am I wrong? Please do correct where necessary so that I can understand.

I believe that my H may well have repented of breaking commandments too. And that his relationship with God is restored...as God always forgives when we are truly repentent. I'm glad for that. Because if not we would all be lost to a relationship with Him. That is if my H even believes in God...I'm not sure he does. I hope so...but I'm not sure.

And, my H has also turned from his actions that have hurt me and our relationship...I think...I'm not so sure I can ever KNOW that at this point. And he is trying to make amends for what he already did...I think....I'm not sure that I can ever KNOW that either. I think that remains to be seen...or felt.

And, I am willing to let him try to do that. That is a gift to him. What I don't know...as it hasn't happened yet in full, is whether or not the injuries are so deep, and the damage so far spread throughout the relationship that I can ever feel safe, and loved in the relationship again. I guess I'll know that when it occurs...or not. What I do know is that he is willing to try...and I am willing to let him. That is all. I don't know if it can ever be done.

I have lost the rage...it served it's purpose. I have lost daily anger, as it has served it's purpose too. I have not been able to stop the hurt...nor the triggers that restore it to life. I don't know how to do that...in fact...I don't know that "I" ever had anything to do with that at all. I never had the choice to stop anything at all...other than stop being around him and his behaviors. I have always had that choice...and I always will...now for sure.

His behaviors caused the hurt, or it wouldn't be there...had he not behaved that way...I wouldn't feel that way...there would be no reason...nor anything for me to deal with on those issues. Would there? And so, since he did the action that began the hurting, then what am I to do to relieve that? Or is that something that he has to do?

Better...what is it that you think that "I" can do about the hurt? What can I do to feel that He is trustworthy? What can I do to feel loved? Or feel safe staying where someone has trampled and disregarded my feelings? What am I to do Choose? I really don't know. Tell me.

I have offered him a chance to repair the damage that he caused by his choice of behaviors. What else is there for ME to do? Can you explain what that is? Because I REALLY don't know. Enlighten me, oh learned one...meant to be amusing...not sarcastic.

I don't blame my H for MAKING me angry. If I didn't care about the relationship, I would feel no pain, nor any anger...he would just be another person on the planet. I'd just be looking at as a disinterested party. Whatever! No feeling about it at all.

Much like watching someone in boxing ring beating the heck out of another. I don't feel the pain of the beaten one...but it certainly hurts them? I suppose they deal with that by knowing that they are being paid to be there and get beaten and that it is their choice to do so? They knew that they might get a beating and took that chance.

I suppose me too. I married knowing there was the chance that my mate would fail to honor the marriage. So, in that way, I get what I chanced? Ok. On that, I plead guilty. I really didn't believe that he would do that. I was wrong. And so I got the beating. I pay the penalty for trust.

He chose to dishonor the vows he made to me. I feel angry that he did that...both at him for doing that...and at me for offering the trust to begin with. Shame on me. I believed him.

I do blame him for doing hurtful things...and choosing to dishonor his vows to me...that hurts...and when I hurt...I do feel angry. The anger is mine...the breach that induced pain...his. I feel angry at him for his choice and I feel angry at me...for mine.

I don't like to be hurt...and I don't like to be lied to...and I don't like being treated with disrespect. I really do feel angry when anyone does that. It isn't exclusive to him.

For instance, Trina is very angry with me right now, and she doesn't want to speak to me any more. I don't blame her...she probably should feel that way. I breached a boundary that I shouldn't have in trying to point out that there can be a good long time in getting over the hurt...and a good long path of desensitation. That gets dished out to us. And that each circumstance has a time frame and a path, however long, for recovery of a good relationship, or failure of the same. She is angry...and I accept that. Whether I'm sorry that it hurt her is irrelevant. What she feels is relevant...to me.

I understand that I could feel nothing at all...and I could just stand and look at what he's done..dispassionate and unfeeling...and do what?

Walk away? Say well, that's how you feel...and that's what you want to do...and that has nothing to do with me...except that I don't like being in a relationship like that? End of subject. Go do as you do. I need to do something else because that hurts me and I'm not willing to be subjected to it? See ya. Have fun!

What is it that "I" get to do about any of that?