FACEBOOK.... ugh,

So Choose how did you politely turn these ladies down... or did you just run for it?

Lorilou

SheenRe,

I see you are frustrated. But I don't get why? We have answered these questions you have continually asked. I have not been on here all summer and expected to see new questions, from all the old members here. Everyone else has moved on. But in reading several of your questions today it seems you are stuck in replay like you could have just cut n pasted some of your responses from a year ago.

I'd like you to know many of the members here have actually spent
hours drafting answers to you and reading your lengthy dialogs hopping to get through to you even if you choose to disagree you at least know where we are coming from.

I remember your story well because I took the time to get to know you. I know you were neglected as a child. That you were a beautiful girl that was not aware of it. You had a previous, abusive marriage to a sex addict and now after 57 years you discovered once again younger married to a sex addict. I know you and your husband have chosen to do the "white knuckle" approach to leaving sex addiction. I know you do not agree e. with us. that. it. is a. decease. I know you do not agree with the 12 steps.

But have you ever taken the time to get to know us? Or is this place just all about you and your misery? Do you know anything about me, Choose,Charli, Trina, Sober after almost 2 years? Do you have any idea what our philosophies are, how we differ in our beliefs?

I know we have explained our ideas to you but I honestly make myself believe you don't care, that your purpose is to take out your
frustrations on those who have tried to help you. That you are here to rip apart our beliefs, find flaws in any nugget of truth we may write.

I feel worn down, sad and angry to come back here and see the same negativity, name calling, sarcasm, and repeated questions.

if you are really interested in us and our ideas will you then take the advice that people give or give your own advice on how your husband has been so successful in turning from his addiction rather than calling someone weird, or being sarcastic?

Lorilou

Lorilou

Lori: You said, ". I know you and your husband have chosen to do the "white knuckle" approach to leaving sex addiction." That isn't true. My H and his counselor chose AVRT instead of a 12-step program. I think Charlie has commented on that. It is a valid alternative...just as affective..for some. 12-step may well be better for some. Whatever works to address the behavior, and it's causes, justifications, confusions is grand with me. But, then, I'm sure you know about that...AVRT? And the difference in white kuncking and AVRT? So, you'd know that there are other approaches than one? Some prefer one, and visa versa.

My H isn't having a problem and he hasn't had a problem...not any more substantial than anyone in a 12-step anway. AVRT was affective for him. That...and lot of talk to a therapist...and me. I think that in ways he was very close to the same recovery span as Sober...just used a different approach.

I do know where you're coming from...mostly. And, I do know your history, Soberone, Charli, Choose, and others. I haven't forgotten. And I think it's good that the path you chose worked. Why wouldnt I? I think that anything that works...addresses the problems and results in success is wonderful I have heard some bad things about 12-steps...and mostly excellent reports. Just because I don't see the overall success, doesn't mean I can't also see some pitfalls that need to be avoided?

There are lots of ladies who come here in shock and in pain...and need immediate options about reducing that...some clarity...in misery. I do try to address those...the immediate shock and confusion. With some questions...for them to ponder...and work out in their head? An impetus toward where self may well be in all of this? Then they can answer their own questions, and move on a path toward what they need?

I'm not sure that an SA can do that really. Some maybe. And I've heard some really bad things here too. But, to tell someone that has just experienced the truth, or at least part of it, that it isn't about sex...when it's the sexual aspect that is causing her distress...seems rather weird. Just me I guess. Because that IS what brings them here in pain.

I don't disagree with 12-steps either...or any step that will address the problem and get some positive results. Whatever that route may be. Why would I? I'm a firm believer in Christian, or spiritual principles. I however don't believe that 12-step is the only resource...it is one..and a good one...but not the only one. And, I've heard it said here many times that any approach that isn't 12-step is bogus. And any guy that claims recovery is a liar. My way...or the highway? I don't think so. I think Charlie can support that isn't true. So, there are some things I disagree with...and that's one of them. Or is no one allowed to disagree and offer other alternatives?

Do you know how many people, ladies and men, who have said thank you to me for clearing up some basic issues? There are quite a few. I haven't been miserating over the summer. Quite the contrary...I've been working on helping myself, my marriage, and others who are at the beginning, confused and suffering. I don't know it all...but I do know part of it...and I share that. In an effort to help them at least get a handle on the most immediate distress.

I have yet to call anyone names...though I've been called names. And what you might deduce as sarcasm is introducing more of the whole picture, not so one-sided. And, the questions often aren't for me....they are those questions that most everyone asks...needs to clarify...and often can't verbalize. I didn't call Choose weird...I would never do that. I think he has done very well. I've told him so. And checked on him when he was struggling. But, that concept...that the behavior has nothing to do with sex is just outright confusing at the first hearing. Or wasn't it for you? And, though something other than sex initiates the use of sex, the behavior is sexual, and that is what distresses the mate? Or am I wrong there?

Ok Choose,

So someone ridiculed your comment (a clear boundary violation) and you have a right to be angry about that. However, functional anger is experienced as assertiveness.

Instead, your "teenager" took over and lashed out at this other person. So here is an unsolicited suggestion on how to respond to walled-ff individuals:

Data: when I heard you say that sex addiction not being about sex is the craziest thing I've ever heard...

Thoughts: What I think about that is that you are ridiculing me because your view is different that mine and that is not acceptable

Emotions: About that I feel anger

Preference: and my preference is that you admit your transgression and in the future request a dialogue about our different realities.


This way you keep your boundaries intact while still asserting yourself. Again, just a suggestion.
A

Sober: Can you define "walled-off?"

It's been defined for you many times.... refer back to our discussions in the beginning on boundaries.

Lorilou

""SEX ADDICTION IS NOT ABOUT SEX. It is about pain, it is about brain chemestry, and it is about core beliefs."

I can agree that the "cause" of the sexual behavior may be induced by brain chemistry, and core beliefs. I cannot agree that it is not about sex...because the "behavior" is sexual though desire for sex may not be the cause. Else, maybe it would be "heroin" or "alcohol" or gambling" or a number of other things that may be addcitive that a spouse is confronted with. The first thing the spouse is confronted with is the "behavior"...which is sexual in this case. Or the drug....or whatever...in other cases.

Perhaps semantics? Maybe I could accept that sex addiction "stems" from habitually altered brain chemistry, and core beliefs that manifest themselves " through" sexual behavior?

And Choose..I erred. I never meant to imply that YOU were weird. All I meant to imply is that the staement is weird. Maybe more like incoplete. And I apologize if you took my response to mean that YOU are weird. Because I don't think that at all. I think that "you've" come to realizes the "causes" of your sexual behavior. And that is great. Then you addressed the causes....that's even better. And, I have already offered you my congratulations on those mountains you've scaled. And, I do still.

I realize that an addict must come to realize "why" they behave as they do. And, I, as a partner, have to cope with the impact on my emotions regarding the sexual behavior, and the thinking of my mater...and the why he does as he does?.

I don't think I'm walled off.....whatever name calling works for you. I like to think my mind is open, to many possibilities. 12-steps, ACRT, spirituality, self-analysis, whatever works. Are you walled-off?

If I can throw my two cents worth into the discussion for a minute, I may be able to shed some light on what I see to be the problem. SheenRe, and also two of our newer members, Zoocitygirl and xoxotiffanynicole are wanting answers to what I see as very logical questions, but they are looking for logical answers, answers that make ANY kind of sense. And unfortunately, with sexual addiction, you're not going to get those kind of answers. Sexual addiction, I think any addict would agree, is a form of insanity. Therefore, the beliefs, the thinking, the reasoning, and the behaviors of the addict NEVER make any logical sense. (Ask any addict about some of the insane situations they've put themselves into in their search for their sexual "high". I know I went into areas of town where, by rights, I should have been killed. But I lived to tell my tale, while other addicts, including a very good friend of mine, didn't).

The ladies are just trying to understand where we addicts are coming from. They think there must be some reason we do what we do, why we go where we go, but there isn't. We believe, think, reason, and behave as we do because we are sex addicts. PERIOD!! All of this is unconscious for us, so we couldn't explain ourselves if our life depended on it, at least until we get into recovery. And I understand completely what SheenRe is saying about sexual addiction not being about sex. Well, it's not about sex as far as we recovering sex addicts are concerned, but when some sex addict's partner is hit smack in the face with the fact that her lover, partner, or spouse has been having sex with somebody else, than for her, it IS all about sex. She doesn't understand sexual addiction yet. So, on the one hand, SheenRe's comments make sense. On the other hand, however, I find it peculiar that she doesn't understand more about this disease considering how long she's been a member of this panel/board.

Finally, to treatment approaches for sexual addiction. As most of you probably know by now, I like the Twelve Step approach because that is what I used, and it worked for me. But it is by no means that only way to recover. Dr. Eli Coleman at the University of Minnesota treats sexual addiction as an obsessive-compulsive disorder. And I must say, he is VERY successful with this approach. Dr. Mark Schwartz of the Masters and Johnson Institute treats sexual addiction by dealing with the core issue most addicts have in their life history, childhood sexual abuse. And his approach is also EXTREMELY effective. An alternative to the Twelve Step approach for folks who have a problem with the "higher power" idea is something called Rational Recovery, and this is what SheenRe was speaking of. This program works by challenging, and then changing your thoughts, feelings, or emotions. And once any one of these changes, your core beliefs, personal values, thoughts, reasoning, feelings, emotions, and behaviors will all change, and this is what results in recovery. And again, this approach works just as well as Twelve Steps, or any of the other programs I've mentioned. So, there's more than one way to do a recovery program, and the "right" program is the one which works for you. There are no universal rights or wrongs here.

So anyway, that's what I see as the problem. These ladies are looking for logical answers to illogical behaviors. But unfortunately, logical answers just don't exist. The only explanation that we recovering addicts can come up with is that we behaved as we did because we were addicts, and that sometimes just isn't enough, although it's all there is.

Thanks Charlie...I really DO understand what you mean. And what Choose said too. I think it was the 'way" it was said that creates...the reaction. That is so hurtfull...when the sexual part IS what hurt you personally and it's dismissed as nothing...invalidated...and feels crazy-making.

I know the "causes" of the "sexual" behavior. But, though the cause is from another source, the sexual behavior and of course the deceptiive tactics, is what hurts the spouse...and that IS what they have to deal with. Opposite sides of the coin...sort of...though they end in the same place....the trauma that stated the behavior. I KNOW. But, it seems in that statement that it is nothing...and it isn't nothing! When I hear that said, it makes me cry...and that isn't nothing.

To say that, that way, to someone who has recently been betrayed, emotionally in shock, traumatized...makes little sense to me. I know how it felt...how it hurt me to hear that here first. I haven't forgotten. And I hate when someone else is hurting. I guess I'm far too empathetic for these things I have personally suffered. And, perhaps not as sympathetic for the other side where I haven't been. I do apologize to everyone for that.

There are few questions...that I really have anymore. And, those are for me personally...not my H. I watched his path...his struggle...heard the thoughts...the reactions...the justifications...and the pain that created his addiction to porn. And, that part of me that isn't "woman", that is "spirit" does understand and feel extreme empathy. So tough to deal with...and so embarrassing for us both.

He became very brave Charlie. And I am very proud of him. And often, I've been very hurt by some of the things said on this board, both to me, and others, that our mate's are lying, they are actively engaged in bad behavior, BECAUSE they aren't attending some meeting somewhere..I can say this...if my H isn't truly recovered...then I don't believe in recovery at all. Because he has radically changed in most every way. And if that isn't it...I wouldn't know it if I saw it.

I'm sorry that I hurt Choose...I really am. I wanted to address the statement...not him personally. I know he didn't coin the phraze...he's just repeating it. I'm over-senstive with that one...because of the damage it caused. And he over-reacts to me...because he thinks I hold "no" sympathy. That isn't true though really...I do...but who is going to care for the SOs? I try to be it. To smash any denials...because that is the ultimate destruction ffor the SO from my view. It was for me in my first marriage...and it cost me Charlie...a whole lot. I would wish it on no one. I would wish no one any pain at all.

And, I'm the typical INFJ...always protecting the injured!

I really am sorry for the todo!

SheenRe, I would NEVER want to say anything to in any way minimize that pain you went through when you learned about both of your husbands being sex addicts. I can't imagine what that must have been like. I think sometimes we addicts get too caught up in our side of things, and we tend to forget that there is another party in this whole equation. If I have ever said anything that in any way has minimized or ignored what you've gone through, I apologize, Please understand that it was certainly not intentional on my part.

Your experiences, and those of other spouses are not to be dismissed, invalidated, or written off as inconsequential. They are a very big deal to you, and I for one think we addicts need to realize that. Our behaviors have consequences, not only for us, but for our partners, and our children. To ignore this collateral damage is insane. And I can understand how, from your side of things, hearing us say that sexual addiction has nothing to do with sex could be crazy-making. Of course it has to do with sex. We have been unfaithful and broken our marriage vows. But in another sense, this behavior really has nothing to do with sex in any way, and you understand that. So I guess the challenge is to figure out some way of saying both of these things at the same time. Yes, it had to do with sex on one level, but no it didn't on another. I've got to think about that one.

You know, SheenRe, I have one wish for you. I wish that you could trust your husband again and give yourself to him 110%, as he gives himself to you in like fashion. I wish you could really know and experience the total, complete, and unconditional love of your husband. I don't know if that is possible. You have been hurt deeply, and repeatedly. And I don't know if your husband is capable of giving himself to you in this way. But that is my wish for you. Do you think that's something you and your husband might work toward? Maybe with the help of a therapist or your minister? I'm talking about giving yourselves to one another as God gave Himself to us in Jesus Christ. (I don't mean to get all religious here, but I know you are a Christian, so you'll understand what I'm saying). Is that something worth even considering? Think about it, okay?

Oh, and by the way, the INFJ explains a whole lot of things. I'm an INTJ.

For those of you who have no idea what in the world I'm talking about, these letters refer to personality types as determined by something called the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. This is a personality indicator that's been around since I guess the 1930's or so. The U.S. Army used it extensively in World War II to help them determine what type of training new recruits should go through. Basically, it assigns people to one of 16 different personality categories. SheenRe is an Introvert, Intuitive, Feeling, and Judging. That means she lives more in the world of ideas than the world of things. She is also creative and imaginative, and able to see the big picture. She definitely doesn't focus on the little things. She is a very emotional person, always aware of what she, and others are feeling. and she is a very orderly person. Someone who is on the extreme end of this characteristic will make lists of things, and then make lists of their lists. I don't think she's that bad, however.

I am also Introverted, Intuitive, and orderly or to use the term from the inventory, I'm Judging (not judgmental). The difference between us is that I am Thinking while SheenRe is Feeling. So I am very analytical and have a much harder time identifying and naming feelings.

Since SheenRe is a feeling person, any perceived assault or attack (like saying that sexual addiction isn't about sex) is felt very keenly, and hurts her deeply. That's why she reacted as she did.

Enfp here is happy to be wired and in nonway was offended. I was hungry angry lonly and tired. How else could intact?

Thank you SheenRe for the apology. I must say your respectful tone upwards your husband marks a great deal if progress off of his side of the street. I too share Charlies wish or prayer for you.

Hey Choose...,

Now I know what your problem is, you're an E (Extrovert), an F (Feeling), and a P (Perceiving). The only thing you got working right for you is the N (Intuitive). LOL!! No, that's great. We need all 16 personality types in the world to make things work, and we couldn't do it without all of you ENFP's. But I really can't imagine what it must be like to be an E. I couldn't be any more on the I (Introverted) side if my life depended on it. Of course, I could say the same thing about the T (Thinking). I'm so analytical that I love Carl Jung, and you really can't get any more analytical than that!!

Charlie Yes, INFJ...ahh. Puts me in some strange arenas...HA! I was tested by the federal government in the context of my employment while working in an investigory and enforcement type of agency and seeking lateral transfer. They were operated much like the military. And, was also tested by a psych professor. He talked with me about the results. Always the same, no getting away from it...HA! So, Charlie...we share most attributes. I can understand your thinking somewhat better. And your balance, and most often gentle handling is greatly appreciated. More often than not I come here to adress what I consider to be trauma....and to hear what you have to say. When I say thank you. I really mean it.

Choose: You say things sometimes too that is both very enlightening. And, I have appreciated your input and spin on things many times. As you know, we share the same religious beliefs, more or less. And, that one thing is by far the more important in all matters.

As far as "You know, SheenRe, I have one wish for you. I wish that you could trust your husband again and give yourself to him 110%, as he gives himself to you in like fashion. I wish you could really know and experience the total, complete, and unconditional love,"

That is not a goal I ever wish to attain. From the spiritual, I do that.. Unconditional love for a person's soul. That way it is sufficient. As far as the giving of "self" unconditionally to another, I have no desire to ever do that. Not at this time. That is not a safe practise.

I aim to love God that way. It is safe to do so. In fact, it's a commandment. The second commandment says to "love others as yourself." That's a little different command...and I personally don't see it as unconditional. We, as humans, are fallible. And, we cannot be fully relied on for safety. (Wow...would I ever know that) Not even I can do that...though I give it my best...to always give my best...and operate from a place of empathy and concern as much as I am able. I always aim at the affect of an overall benefit to others in my life.

However, I don't offer "unconditional" love. And, I don't expect unconditional love...from anyone but God. In fact, the scripture says to not lean on the arm of man, he will fail. I do take that to heart as I've found it to be true.

I love my H. But, I expect that to remain interactive with me, he will honor my beliefs, my morals, and my feelings. He failed to do that, and it will not be accepted, much less tolerated. My continued interactions with him "are" dependent on his interactions with me. I will not tolerate abuse.

I have been abused, and I have been tolerant, and I have offered both empathy and kindness to two...at the very least...who have abused those things. And, I learned from that...that it is not good. It isn't good for them. And it certainly isn't good for me.

Because...I know...that it wouldn't be good for me for a loved one to allow me to walk a path of destruction without efforts to deter me. So, I offer the same. And, I expect that he make his own choices. And, if those choices should come to mean that he refuses to act with integrity, then he will walk that path alone. It doesn't mean that I won't love him. It means that I won't accept that walk. It is not only hurtful as a human, a woman, but I feel it isn't good for the soul either.

Jesus, himself offered love...and forgivenss, to those who came to Him," truly repentent" and ready to change their heart and their behavior...and He also said, Go and sin nor more. And there may well be a lot of meaning in those words. I think that He also said to forgive a brother 70 X 7, if they were truly repentent. What He didn't say was how to know when that is. It is difficult, even for an INFJ to determine when that is.