How does "My wife doing everything she could to satisfy me would not have helped my addictoin" and "Of course we have learned how important it is to take care of our Sex Addicts sexual needs" fit in the same universe?

The answer is that sex addiction is not about sex. It is about broken core beliefs about myself. This poorly defines set of coping skills is what got me to the place where I used sex to deal with things like stress, and insecurities, and avoiding pain and anger.

When sex is driven by this inability to cope maturely with life our poor wives can not satisfy that sex. Beause you can not fill a spiritual void with an physical behavior.

You can however, with a broken and contrite heart have that spiritual void filled. And with a right heart, sex works (spiritually, emotionally, morally, and physically).

Right?

Ok, so my original curiosity was founded on the thought that not being willing to do something sexual that your husband desires might come from your own place of brokenness, and your husbands terrible dispicalbe behavior though wounds you terribly, might have exaserbated something that was already there.

Kinda like our addictions. They were already there. You not giving us oral sex just exaserbates it.

JUST KIDDING!!!!

Hey Choose, you are really deep and thoughtful. Why not write a book? I'm serious.
About the broken core beliefs. How did you figure that out? Was it hard to admit and acknowledge? What produced this brokenness?
I am asking because I want to understand, but I also want to help my sons avoid becoming SAs.

Thank you. It is on my mind to write a book. One of the reasons not to is because it will publically "out" my sex addiction. I am fine with this, but my wife and kids would have to deal with all of their friends knowing. I am good with close friends

The insight comes from reading. The core beliefs are described by Patrick Carns. I have just been passionate about my recovery like I am about everything else.

Regarding empowering your children, there are several issues. Masturbation is and should be done in private if at all, and it should not be driven by lust. This is a great way to create a habit of shame. So though I do not want to encourage my son to do it, I am trying to find a way for it not to be.a secret thus perpetuating that he should be ashamed. I contend that lust is the real problem, and masturbation, or more accurately lots of errections is a physical response to lust. Since I have been careful to "ceep the covenant with my eyes" like Job 31 I have had less desire > fewwer erections > less need to deal with the erections > less access to the persinal pharmacy for brain chemestry that perpetuates my coping mechanism if avoiding negative feelings I was not equipped to handle because I was overloaded by being sexualized at 10 through abuse which no child can properly cope with so must find effective ways to avoid. So I easily discovered the intense pleasure of masturbation was very effective at shutting down the feelings I wanted to avoid > thus set up to become addicted.

All of this to say a safe open shameless environment wherew your children know that there is nothing they could do could ever stop you from loving, accepting and affirming them. This way they can feel safe discussing powerfully compelling issues like masturbation with you instead of thinking they are powerless like addicts believe.

Sex is all over the Bible so that is where I vet all of the sa material I read against. That is why I am not convicted that masturbation is wrong in itself. Lust is the problem. So how does a 13 yearold boy learn how to seperate the two and enjoy a god given pleasure of orgasm without lusting and allowing it to become compulsive?

Yes, if you discover the answer to that one let me know Choose.
I have yet to have the responsible m chat with my 15 year old son. My h did recently, but i think I'm going to as well.

How about you both working out a common message and discuss it with him together. we discussed how to empower right beliefs about sex to our 9 yo daughter. I was relying on my non sa wife to take the lead and model right things, but she did not say a word for 2 months. So I my advice is not actually founded in anything other than my typing skills.

I would love a book from you. I can't remember your story. Have we heard your story?
I don't think i even know what your turning point for realising you had a problem, Choose. What made you start recovery?
Any way i can understand the 'everybody knowing' problem. Such is the shame and judgement problem. Shall we start a discussion on that?

Choose - I believe your original question had to do with whether the experience of Oral Sex was different for sex addicts vs. those who are not sex addicts.

Here's my take on this through my experience as a sex addict:

Oral sex is one of the most intimate sex acts there is for me to be on the receiving end of. However there have been times when a "blowjob" has been dissatisfying - most noteably when I was receiving it from someone whom I didn't care much for. When received in an enthusiastic and loving manner - from someone I like then it can be awesome. When the give is less than enthusiastic or my mind is elsewhere it can be awful.

Sex addicts develop a fantasy relationship with their view of sex. Porn use is the best example of this, though this take can be applied to chat, affairs, prostitutes, etc. as well. The key is a separate fantasy-based sexual relationship exists and is nurtured by the sex addict. Porn simply adds fuel to the fantasy fire.

Men who are in healthy sexual relationships view sex in a different way than addicts. As addicts we focus on each separate sex addict as something important in and of itself, whereas the healthy sexual person sees sex acts collectively as a means to fulfill the love they share with their partner.

To put it plainly, sex addicts are hyperfocused on sex itself, whereas healthy folks view sex as a means to and end rather the end itself. Thus when the sex addict performs a sex act whether on themself or another person they are mildly unsatisfied with whatever the outcome may be, because the sex act without a focus on love is empty - thus requiring more sex to fill the void.

Healthy sexual union results in feelings of love, bliss, ecstasy that last and last. Fantasy sex rarely lasts more than a few seconds, before guilt and depression set in, kicking off a desire to repeat the process to alleviate the difficult feelings.

Hence sex addiction is all about using sex to replace feelings of doubt, anxiety, depression, fear etc. with the biochemically induced high of sexual orgasm. In some sense as a sex addict we become drug addicts - addicted to drugs we ourselves produce which is why sex addiction is one of the most difficult to recover from > we are the user and our dealer is available 24 hours a day and gives us our drug for free. Plus since sex is a required part of life, to recover one must sever the relationship with the fantasy sex life and renew a sex life based on reality - which is really difficult, especially when one gets used to the 24/7 availability of the highs of addiction.

I would also like to comment on the question "Are sex addicts less likely to act out if their partner fulfills their sexual desires?"

> in my experience it makes little or no difference, because of the sex addicts ongoing relationship with acting out. Porn addicts have a "relationship" with porn. Yes, the relationship is based on pure fantasy, however that is what makes the relationship stronger because with porn one is never rejected, it's there whenever you want it. Unfortunately because porn is always willing and ready to go at it, and the porn producers know the power the have, the porn sites are optimized to keep the addicts using it and strengthen the relationship. All the while the time the and sexual energy the addict spends gives to their porn relationship is time and energy not available to give to their partner.

And since the porn is fueled by the fact that the user is using their own brain to fuel the fantasy there are no boundaries to taking action, unlike in a true relationship where timing, time of the month, feelings, sleepiness, physical fitness etc. are factors involved with and often inhibiting sex. Even when the sex is really good between the SO and the sex addict, the fantasy relationship still exists and requires the sex addict to nurture it in order to keep it going.

That said, when one does enter recovery from porn addiction / sex addiction (whether it be online, prostitutes, chat, affairs etc.) - the focus goes back to "loving sex", which in my experience takes time to learn to cultivate as the mindset and approach to sex with the fantasy porn relationship do not work with real human interaction. Thus a period of relearning sex must take place, especially if the fantasy relationship has been a long one.

Another point is that in reading the previous posts I was surprised that I did not read much if at all about personal preferences. Why is that? For some reason I have never expected everyone woman I have been with to "swallow' or even equate swallowing to "completion". If anything completion = orgasm, and contrary to what most men think they know about their own orgasm > the truth is that a man's orgasm arrives just before ejaculation. Hence men can learn to become multi-orgasmic, just as many women are.

In terms of preference - have you tasted your own cum Choose? If you haven't, you should because you are asking someone else to swallow it you should at least know what it is you are asking them to do and be willing do to so yourself. This is the same with anal sex. Many men assume just because they have the penis, that women should submit to anal sex, yet when asked if they themselves would be willing to be penetrated anally they say "hell no". You see what I'm saying here. Preferences.

There's also biomechanics involved too (i.e. physical comfort). Unforunately for me, my wife's mouth is small and I possess a rather large girth. Hence she cannot even get the tip of my penis in her mouth when erect without great discomfort let alone the whole thing. Plus she simply cannot stand the sight of ejaculate - it makes her gag and convulse. Being that it is not her thing to swallow and I genuinely love and respect her I do not expect her to do so (i.e. healthy sexual boundaries). If I were to act out of sexually addictive fantasies or project my addictive fantasy relationship on her then I would EXPECT her to swallow and be pissed that she did not care for me enough to "complete me". See the difference?

I expressed to her how much I enjoy it, and on her own she came up with a solution that works great. She can start me out from flacid orally just fine. When I become hard she uses her lubed up hands in combination with her tongue to provide me the sensation of full on oral sex. It feels the same to me and I orgasm and feel great all the same.

You see, healthy sex is about having sex to share the love, caring, respect you share with your partner. Fantasy sex is all about getting off, which is empty sex and leads to cravings for ever more to fill the perpetual void.

My 2 cents.

That was well said, and makes much sense. Thanks Newstrength, we can always count on you for a worthy 2 cents worth.
A Happy New Year to you.

Great insight, New Strength. You brought up some really interesting and valid points. Thanks!

Lots to say, little time.

I do not expect "swallow" I don't even "expect" oral sex now. Your point that it is great when she "wants" to do it and incomplete when sex is the end is agreed. So why do most - sorry, some, sorry - these sex addicts wives not want to do that specific thing? Punishment for sa's bad behavior? Taste? Unforgiveness? A lack of willingness to please someone who betrayed them? Transferrance about the behavior of the addict onto that particular behavior?

Which of these reasons are healthy to leave unresolved? And who is responsible for facing these issues? The SA? The SO? How do healthy people face them?

I will take taste as an example. Is something tasting bad enough of an excuse for not satisfying a sexual desire? The answer is no, BUT the husband should be at a place where his satisfaction in this area is sacrificed to respect his wife's lack of willingness to address her issue with the taste. This is alot to ask from a sex addict, but maybe not for a healthy guy. Either way, the wife still is not WILLING to do what her husband desires because it tastes bad. Well, until recently I HATED sushi. Then I noticed my wife liked it and had been avoiding it for my sake. So I decided to try it and after a while, 5 or 6 trys I finally like the taste espeially the wasabi sinus rush. :-). I have tasted my semen and after reading have discovered through trial and error that no red meat, coffee for 24 hours, and 2 bananas 2 to 4 hours before ejaculating makes it taste sweeter, not sweet, but the bitter edge goes away. My problem is that if there is no effort to even try, and taste is the excuse, then even fixing the taste will avail not.

This is not y situation, bot my point is that this specific issue is probably a HUGE double bind for sex addicts, because. Of BOTH partners lack of respect, and probably no big deal for healthy people.

Final pitch, would it be a reasonable and healthy sexual boundary for a man to stop performing oral sex just before her orgasm?

You need a control group. How many women period do this, not just counting women of sex addicts? You don't know if it is more prevalent among wives of SAs unless you compare.

I didn't answer regarding my personal preferences because to me it is not really the issue. Finding out whether I personally swallow or not, is not really going to help anyone with their addiction. It just seems like an attempt to shift some blame to the spouses or at least garner pity, or distract from the real issues.

But I will answer now. My H didn't press me to do it. I wanted to. And it went well for a while. But when he started to refuse to wash his uncircumcised self before sex, I started to balk. If I asked him to wash, he would be so angry that I dared to make a request, that the sex act would end before it even started. So for him, I had to accept sweat and musk and smegma. That is the acceptance he required. I just stopped doing it. And I never asked him to do anything to me in an unwashed, smelly state. We are talking about the end of the day, after a quick shower which had taken place 10-12 hours earlier.
I'm sure he finds a way to complain about what I wouldn't do. In fact, his favorite prostitute even posted something about how she does what the wife won't. I guess if I needed my fix money and was getting $150 for it, things would be different.

Choose - I'm wondering if you think more women do it than actually do? Pornography normalizes orals HUGELY and makes it seem like its a normal part of sex. But you forget that for most women who don't watch porn, it can be somewhat foreign. For many, their view of sex was defined by sappy love stories where the couple lay next to a crackling fireplace, sip champagne, slowly unbutton their clothes and talk forever afterwards. Sure, that is unrealistic also, but how many women get that fantasy fulfilled??

And, I don't know that comparing food choices to oral sex necessarily equates. However, it was YOUR choice to start trying sushi. Let it be HER choice to give you a bj.

And as for stopping oral sex before her orgasm...if your reasons are valid, sure. But if its because she won't do it for you, then that just sounds immature.

My final thought is this - I REALLY REALLY REALLY don't think the inability or outright refusal to give oral sex has much, if anything, to do with sex addiction. I think it has everything to do with the woman in question. But I DO think sex addiction may have something to do with how much a man desires or demands oral sex.

Thanks again for your balanced thoughtful open response Cali.

Its not immature, it is manipulative. 6th step-esque is that!

I am not blaming, I am making the point that it is real easy for an SO to blame their SAs for not being willing to do that.

After many responses and much thought, this is what I think. If my wife wanted me to do something for her, I would do my best to do it for her.

As a sex addict, beleiveing that If I trust her with my needs, they would not be met. And that I am not lovable. It is easy to belive that if this attitude is not reciprocated, it is because I am not loved.

I get to go on a date with my beautiful wife, so I will take my leave for now.

Choose, it sounds like you have clearly identified the root cause of your feelings. I think if you discuss it in that way with your wife, you might have a breakthrough. I think if someone I loved and who loved me came to me and said openly and sincerely that it was keeping them from feeling loved, I would be ready to swallow a 2 inch booger. Not that I am equating this with the other thing.

I'm glad you're doing this. You and some others who are courageous enough to work through your recovery in public are the only thing keeping me, at least, from dismissing SAs, and to some extent men, altogether. It is nice to see this, men working through tough issues because they love one woman and want to do right. It is something I have never seen in my own life.