Rheumatoid Arthritis Support Group

Rheumatoid arthritis is a chronic, inflammatory, multisystem, autoimmune disorder. It is a disabling and painful condition which can lead to substantial loss of mobility due to pain and joint destruction. The disease is also systemic in that it often also affects many extra-articular tissues throughout the body including the skin, blood vessels, heart, lungs, and...

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stephgas 12/16/2013

so i was googling. and i am going to be choosing between these two biologics on wednesday. and an old thread here came up and mentioned some stuff. stuff i'm not thrilled with.

enbrel is produced... in CHINESE HAMSTER OVARY CELLS? like, so it's actually created in chinese hamster ovary cells? i'm having a very hard time with this right now.

i think of pharmaceuticals like men in white lab coats playing with chemicals. i didn't realize that biologics were, well.... so biological. that sounds pretty stupid now that i say/type it.

apparently humira is a monoclonal antibody - it's made from all human proteins, no animal.

this is an issue. i think. i mean, how is this done? does anyone know?

i'm about 85/90% vegetarian and work hard to be aware of what animal products are in m home. i don't bring any raw meat in my home (except for my cats. they are obligate carnivores and require meaty bits). i don't cook meat (again, see: my cats).

i was pretty much thinking i'd go with enbrel since it has a longer track record, but now i'm not sure. does anyone know how this whole 'chinese hamster ovary' thing works?

bluedogs2 12/16/2013

Good Grief -

I looked at WIKI and WOW ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_hamster_ovary_cell

who'da thunk it

Be well
Bluedogs2

Lori57703 12/16/2013

I am not a scientist or anything like that but when I read the link BD2 shared on this is sounds like the Chinese Hamster Ovary Cells do not actually come from any hamster that has been alive in this century. They are clonned cells from a hamster in 1957:.

"The first CHO cell line was derived from the original cell lines in Dr. Puck's laboratory through single cell cloning in 1957[4] CHO-K1 was later derived from this ancestral cell line,[5] "

I don't know if this helps you feel any better. I think that knowing the medication comes from some cells grown in a petri-dish rather than a cute, fuzzy little hamster that had it's ovaries removed for me makes it a little more tolerable. Of course, I could be interpretting in incorrectly as well.~Lori

deleted_user 12/17/2013

All I know is Enbrel put my son in the hospital with his migraines and Humira doesn't. I would never have thought that though. Yikes...

Angelpuss 12/17/2013

Enbrel is a biopharmaceutical that treats autoimmune diseases by interfering with tumor necrosis factor (TNF; a soluble inflammatory cytokine) by acting as a TNF inhibitor. systems. Autoimmune diseases are caused by an overactive immune response. Enbrel has the potential to treat these diseases by inhibiting TNF-alpha
It has been on the market since 1998 and is weekly.

Humira also targets TNF and is an injection every two weeks.

Hope this may be of some help.

depotblue 12/17/2013

Steph

good luck with your decision. I admire your thinking it through. at the time that I took each, one, then the next one after some period of time, I did not do as much research as you did.

Ros

MKP1952 12/17/2013

I have been on both. Both helped at about the same level, which was a GREAT deal! I was switched to a Orencia because it was not helping as much as my Rheum. wanted to see.

On another level - both burn and hurt like crazy. The only difference was I only had to torture myself once every other week on Humira. Enbrel was weekly. Ouch. Ouch.

stephgas 12/17/2013

meh. it is a bit better for me knowing that the ovary cells used now are cloned from ancestral lines. that's like heirloom tomatoes.

i'm mostly-vegetarian for health and animal welfare reasons, so that's why i was kind of weirded out by it. plus i used to breed dwarf hamsters - hamsters are one of my favorite animals.

this does make me feel better. but i think i may do some more research because wikipedia isn't always 100% reputable because it can be modified by anyone. i'll have to log into my school's computers and see if i can find some info in medical journals i guess.

Lori57703 12/17/2013

Steph,

Here is another article I found, not WIKI. I agree with you on the reliability of WIKI but it is a great jumping off place.

I am glad you started this tread as I may be having to choose a biologic at some point and this helps me as well. ~ Lori

http://cellculturedish.com/2011/07/chinese-hamster-ovary-cho-cells-the-workhorse-behind-many-biotech-drugs/

Indycarr 12/17/2013

lol Steph - I never really gave the work 'biologic' a thought until you put it like that! And yes - it all makes sense now that we're thinking logically about it...

Wow... it all sounds so sinister or something - chinese hamster ovary cells? Who would have thought that chinese hamsters had something that Canadian, or American, or UK hamsters didn't have! lol

It's all interesting info - certainly not something I would have ever thought to google.

Thanks for the info!

altoclef 12/17/2013

As far as choosing between them, my insurance company had that honor!

For more background on this type of cell, and a darned good read, the book "The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks" (Rebecca Skloot, 2010) is the story of a cell line taken (without consent) from a poor, uneducated woman suffering from cancer. 60 years later, HeLa cells are still the most widely used human cell.

stephgas 12/17/2013

see, that's what i wanted. i don't know what 'cell line' means. i research things, but not like, you know. sciencey things. but i feel a lot better knowing that they're not like breeding chinese hamsters for this or something like that. like lab mice. thanks jen!

also, my hamster-breeder coming out here, depending on the pet store, most full size hamsters sold commercially are syrian hamsters. :)

Trooper45yrs 12/17/2013

I had a co-worker a few years back (young male, approx. 30) who opted for the parenteral delivery of Enbrel. He explained to me that he went in once a month for about four hours and received the medication intravenously. He would always take that day off from work, because it wiped him out - he said he felt exhausted by it, but he swore by the results. He was very happy with the effectiveness of the parenteral delivery and only having to go in once a month for it. I have only been on Humira, myself. Just based on my perceived experience on Humira (injected every other week), compared with my impression of my co-worker's perceived experience on Enbrel, I would say he probably had better results than I did. He seemed much more pleased with his results than I have felt with mine.

stephgas 12/17/2013

i'm only going to have the option of injecting either medication. i'm not really nervous about injecting, but i'm a little nervous. my dad is an insulin dependent diabetic, and i've watched him 'shoot up' as he calls it for twenty years.

having said that, i've asked my husband to come with me so he can learn how to administer the shot if i chicken out. which i might. you never know.

my rheumy made it sound like i could choose what is best for me. i looked into pre-reqs on my insurance website, and i don't see any. that doesn't mean there *aren't* any. because i've already been through this once before.

depotblue 12/17/2013

i had the option it's just the infusion balance on my end was about $400 a month and the injection was $5 with the co pay assistance program on both.

ra tropper my rheumie would prefer to infuse my orencia rather than having me self inject. i just can't afford the monthly balances. the co pay program, for me, covers only the med, not the nursing stuff surrounding an infusion. for me personally the injections are nothing on the pain end. it is more painful for me personally to take tangles out of my hair in my dry cold house. this was a great relief from years ago when I worried about whether the needles would be an issue. the relief i get from the meds so far overshadows the injection even the auto injector thing that i used briefly before switching to syringes when I did humira then enbrel.

Ra trooper maybe it is time to change your biologic? what does your rheumie think?

Ros

sammyo1 12/17/2013

Steph, the injections are not painless but with icing , leaving it out for that 1/2 hr & pulling the skin between your 2 fingers tautly you'll get get by. Count to 20 & it's usually done.
Do not skip from 1 to 20 like I did (LOL) that won't work.
You'll do fine, RA. Hurts far more then the injection.
Chin up & the very best of luck with what ever one you choose.
Sammy

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