And Cave, respect must be earned, it can't be demanded.

The people who are well-respected on this site are respected because they've put in the time, sometimes not only here, but in other endeavors regarding blood clot awareness, such as Tom has done with the NBCA and other organizations. It's unreasonable to expect to blow into any forum as a new person and immediately become the most respected person in the room, which obviously you want to be. Humility goes a long way, especially when you're new to something and you're up against people with years and years of actual experience. Part of what's great about this group is that until you came no one set him/herself up as the ultimate "authority". We share our experiences to try to help each other.

Aussie-----thank you! I try to back up what I say with information gleaned from respected sites (.gov, .edu, hospitals, studies etc).

Then I try to remember to give the urls to those sites so that people can see it's not just my opinion. That's the way I was taught.

Aussie, when i started on warfarin my cardiologist said the same as what has been said here. Eat healthy and consistently and the dose would be adjusted around my lifestyle. I haven't changed my diet, many of the foods I love are high in vit K, just found the dose that suited me.'

STOP THE MADNESS!

Ultimately, the goal of DS is to provide a safe, supportive environment for those of us going through challenging health issues. While I don't think many of Cave's posts support that goal, neither do many of the response posts to Cave's posts.

This is America (well, OK, I know not everyone on this group is in America ... just roll with me on this). We do have freedom of speech. And, ultimately, it is healthy debate that makes the world go round. We don't all have to agree with what Cave is posting, but the personal attacks are starting to make all of us look like bullies ... and that isn't safe OR supportive either.

Everyone take a deep breath and take a step back. I don't agree with the "Fear Factor" behind some of Cave's posts (although he/she/it does add a lot to threads when just posting normal experiences), but I also think many of us are going a little overboard here.

I mean, I like it here (obviously, since I seem to spend most of my waking hours here). But the negative "playground" vibes are getting to me.

I can't control what anyone posts, but we ALL need to be more cautious about what we're posting. If it isn't supportive... If it isn't helpful... if it isn't healthy debate ... then step AWAY from the keyboard. That goes for me, that goes for Cave, that goes for all of us.

Well said TnT. I had sent Cavey and msg saying I apology if it sound like I was personally attacking. My point was, all of this point and counter point discussions were being counter productive to the group; which is what I was trying to convey. We just laid to rest one Vitamin K discussion only to open another one saying the same general thing. In sake of moderation, it needed to be said that enough was enough.

I agree people can post what they want. That is true. And people have a right to counter the information. And I agree, it doesn't need to get personal. I am of the mind that people pointing out behavior is not necessarily a personal attack. Name calling is personal. But listen if I were to personally attack someone, I'd do it behind someone's back, to someone else, like any functional adult, ha!

Seeing this topic brought up again, for no other reason than to push one's own agenda or to make a point, was just too much and people lost their cool, people who normally don't. That is telling, right or wrong.

I wish this hadn't happened, because it detracts from the purpose of this group. But I hope we can move on.

Lastly , there are no victims here so no need for that sentiment. Come on now.

At the risk of incurring disapproval from some----- I'd like to tell people why I started this new thread.

No names mentioned but someone in another thread said s/he was trying to increase INR readings by eating more Vit K foods.

With all things else being equal-----eating more Vit K foods will decrease your INR.

I saw that there had been some confusion/misconceptions about that and started this thread. I can see it angrified some people.

Another thread I started was an indirect way to present some information that may or may not have been pertinent to a query by a member. I did that by starting a new thread NOT by addressing that member directly and in the hope that it might be read and thought about and then discussed with a doctor.

I don't possess the hubris to believe that I have all the answers. But I do hope that people might use some of my references as a jumping off point for their own research or to talk over with their doctor.

So there are some misconceptions about the reasons behind some of my posts.

Give it up caves
Stop posting about this and let it die

Personally, for me, the thing which is getting people's ire, cave, is simply the fact that you choose to present this as it's own discussion, again. I can't speak for anyone else, but if I saw the exact same information which you have here posted on another discussion in which this topic had naturally come up, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Because it's part of the conversation which is happening. To set it up again as another discussion makes you appear to be putting yourself above others. Even if, for instance, Aussie had gotten a chance to post her question about how it is that vitamin K and warfarin affect each other, and you posted this information, then again fine - it's a pertinent part of a conversation then, instead of appearing that you're just trying to goad people. In the context of a conversation, people can link to info if they want, or relate their personal experiences, etc. Now, again, I personally have a gripe with the particular information which you chose to post. Yes, it comes from a 'medical source' but not one I've ever heard of, and usually we try to link to things which are generally considered very reliable. I mean, once you referenced Dr Gourmet, which again I would consider a possible questionable resource. And this particular link describes the relationship between warfarin and vitamin K in a way which I sounds very confusing, and quite honesty is the opposite of how it really works. There are many other sites which give a clearer description of the relationship. No, I don't feel like looking them up, because I've been dealing with the relationship of those two things for many years, I have a clear understanding of how it works. I have done this research in the past, if someone else wants to do the work linking, then fine, but I will try to help explain something when it seems unclear.

And again, you're well within your right to just simply say that for you it seems to work to change your vit K intake if you need changes in your INR. You apparetly are expecially sensitive to warfarin, as you've mentioned before you are on a low dose. But then I, for instance, have every right to counter that while that works for you, someone else might want to think twice and be sure to talk to their doctor, because if you limit your vit K intake, you will very likely suffer collateral damage of depriving yourself of other vitamins and minerals that are also present in vit K-heavy food. Then you can counter back with whatever you like. We're just sharing our experiences here, and of course anyone reading any of this will have to look at all sides and see how they decide to handle it themselves.

I do appreciate the explanation of why you listed this topic yet again, because honestly it seemed to me like you were just trying to bring up what has (oddly) become a hot-button topic so you could become the center of attention again. Because seriously, in more than three years on this site, I've never seen such a heated debate regading vitamin K intake. It's the kind of thing people ask about a lot, there's a simple explanation given, and it's no big deal. This has been very strange.

@shilohsmommy,

I'll get back to answer your lengthy post later. But, as happens so often, you said that I referenced Dr. Gourmet and didn't understand what the (!) I entered after his name meant.

If I had entered the word (GACK) after his site I'm sure that a whole gaggle of people who just love him would descend upon me and I'd get even more hate mail. (inserting smiling emoticon here)

So, we've met on a common ground: you don't like his site and neither do I. I call that progress.

Yes, it's certainly a hot spot. Make even more 'hot' by the people who respond. I think that is a telling point---- people are even more interested in Vit K pros and cons than previously thought.

Catch ya later.

no pro and cons just old useless information on vitamin k .people will read this and think they should be concerned with vitamin k .then that leads to confusion about it .then anxiety starts to come in to play .because now people have herd 2 different opinions.and most won't be on it long enough to have time to figure it out like us lifers .the newbies just need it as simple as they can .

MinnMan said
***the newbies just need it as simple as they can***

I think you're not giving newbies enough credit for their ability to think for themselves.

Actually what you probably meant was that newbies need to hear just one version (yours?) I mean no disrespect.

Newbies need to hear that warfarin is metabolised differently by each and every one of us. That's why we need to get INR checks so frequently.

Yes, some foods, not even neccessarily vitamin K food can affect that INR.

Doctor's seem to perpetuate the thought that NO VITAMIN K is the way to go, when in fact a lot of us each it every day.

The key is consistency.

If you're eating a bowl of spinach every day, then continue to do it. If you're not eating a bowl of it every day, then don't suddenly start.

There isn't much more to it than that, I guess in my opinion.

M2LR said:
****Doctor's seem to perpetuate the thought that NO VITAMIN K is the way to go****

I haven't found that to be true, myself. But I h

oops! hit the wrong key


----- but I have seen people misinterpret what the doctors and sites say.

But if you have specific knowledge of a doctor or a site that does say that I think it would be helpful to post that information here on the board.

In fact, I just saw a strange entry yesterday on a web site that was talking about what foods have Vit K in them. It said that ONLY green LEAFY vegetables have Vit K. (Guffaw)

So what about cauliflower, for just one? (giggle)