i find as much beauty as i find pain, and as much kindness as i find greed. when the disease is raging, i see only pain, but there is true good if i seek it.

No pain=no joy.

We would just be numb all the time.

Knowing real pain means our joys are that much greater as we appreciate the good times even more.

I've had the philisophical questions of this matter come up all the time, and I reach the same conclusion that it's an excuse and to be honest with you, nothing ever comes out of it.
Why? People feel pain, or defend themselves or want power, but they never really move 'beyond' that pain because searching for hapiness, helping others, it's just away to extend or trandscend from their old pains to a higher place - a clever way of saying an excuse.
I know this, because I have heard people talk like me but they don't change, because even changing state, it's just another way for the brain to very cleverly fool itself into thinking, that something positive is commencing as all is changing. No matter how much grief that change gives you, you are higher in self, and feel you 'own' that moment even if you don't.
I've learnt that most people are empty underneath, empty of understanding, and refuse to see themselves as ignorant children who are terrified to show their true skin - they know nothing.
We are all the clueless leading or following the clueless.
Is this helpful to you?
I don't know, maybe it's made it worse, but why would a "soul" or creative universe create itself this way?
Only answer? It's not real, and further more it's not even deliberate, it just is, sometimes, that makes it worse. It is bereft of meaning even if you add meaning to it, that is the sadness of it.
You can't win.
Enjoy the moments of happiness that are natural and there.

I think this raises the question, is suffering necessary?

I wonder how long it will take humans to figure out that child abuse, or abuse period, seems to bring on suffering.

What is really interesting is that most mammals do NOT abuse their young.They love and protect them until they can fend for themselves.

Is mostly only humans that do.sick huh?

Absolutely, toot.

Yeah, have pondered this issue all of my life especially the past couple of decades.

I have no answers. Observation: some humans see pain around them and want to help. They seem to have a natural drive to lift up others. Sometimes, this quality comes from having suffered themselves. Other times, such people are just that way.

On the other hand, there's all the rest of them....I think of my so-called "family" and "ex-friends" who abandoned me so long ago when I first became physically disabled and then years along came the PTSD. They think "me, myself, and I." Period.

We can call this selfishness or whatever. But it's very primitive. Such people have not progressed much beyond an amoeba.

Think many of us have had a lot of hard work learning to protect ourselves from hurtful people. It's taken me way too long and am in deep trouble now because of that. I am always so happy when I see someone here in this group make strides in taking care of themselves. Wish I had learned it sooner.

Hey people, haven't you heard? Humans are the most advanced species.

So, is it true then that pain makes man think? Like, maybe it's the pain itself that cracks open the soul and creates compassion then for others who are suffering, and until one suffers themselves, they are unable to think of others besides themselves? That sounds about like the people I've met... when I think about it...

I know this one lady (my boss' wife).. a VERY "take charge" and "don't mess with me" kind of person. Had always had just about everything in life one could ask for, experienced no heartache to speak of. She wouldn't really even give me the time of day, but then her mother suddenly became ill and died a horrible death. It was so shocking and unexpected to everyone who knew her (I did, too... a very nice woman).

Well, ever since that happened, my boss' wife has seemed different, as though she "sees" me now, actually makes an effort to be courteous and smiles. I'd never made the connection until you said what you did, ibutterfly!

Thank you! ; )

...I forgot to say, too, that I have ALWAYS been very gullible and easily hurt by others, almost a "target", a very EASY target for anyone who might want to be mean, verbally or otherwise, and for almost 50 years could never figure out how to sense who was "safe" to be around and who wasn't, so I just gave up trying. Then, I realized that I could just let other people's mean words and "*#!$!*" kind of go THROUGH me like I was transparent... it was about the same time I started to have more compassion for THEM, after I read this quote...

"be kind for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle" (can't remember the author)

It's been kind of a learning thing, most of the time I forget, but if I try to remember "it's not about ME" it seems like I do better. If I could just remember! :(

Sam,
Have you heard of the buddhist saying that goes something like "pain is inevitable, suffering is not"? Acceptance and commitment therapy adopted it as well. It is worth looking up... The main premise that we have something that causes us PAIN but it is our own personal efforts to avoid feeling this pain that cause SUFFERING. I know that some don't see a difference between pain and suffering, but there is... Anyway, just wanted to share...

Um, I feel at pains to point out that some animals EAT their young. And also that primates, such as chimpanzees, conduct raids on other family territories and commit violent acts against isolated, or otherwise vulnerable inidviduals. Including murder. Just wanted to clarify that.

True, Southerly. Even dolphins are brutal. They rape and murder.

Sloths are gentle!

Yeah i did not say all animlas and chips are very cruel.Interesting our closest cousins....

And my parrot can be verbally abusive at times...somebody taught him a swear word....I don't feel like I can tell anyone...I feel so ashamed :)

Just kidding, my boy's an angel!