It might even be a matter of public safety for me to walk away from "The Monster-in-Law" job. I believe my combat training makes me a tad bit over-qualified for that position. The offer gives me conditioned flashbacks the portion of combat training where they train you how to avoid using lethal skills on barroom drunks, in-laws and the like.

Walk away. Now. Efficiently.

OK. I am taking one long deep breath, and forgive me for my lengthy reply.

I have to ask, this is out of my own situation, as a forty-something whose attempts to caretake a parent have gone quite awry, what with her issues and mine.... Which I know you know, Arfie, so i'll cut to the chase.

Do you want to not be their mother, in the sense of holding hands and kissing boo-boos and being their ATM and go-to for free childcare and/or whatever? Because my SIL does that ot my MIL and it never fails to infuriate me. My brother's sis is *my* age. She has a full-time job. She can da*n well pay her own bills, IMHO. And yet.... That's its own saga. My MIL consents to continue cleaning up after her forty-something daughter as if said daughter is still 10.

On the other hand.... Do you not want to be their mother, in the sense of offering love and advice and the metaphorical words of wisdom dished out with a nice cuppa? Remove the emotional component of affection and caring as well as remove the physical caretaking?

My mom didn't do the physical caretaking, never has in my adult life, even when I was bedridden. I do that for her, or have.

That said? My mom has decided she's done being a mom. As in, after 45 years, hey, she doesn't need to regard me any differently than she would a total stranger. (Or worse, since she'd never trash a rented home the way she has ours.).... So instead of someone I could talk to, vent with, reminisce with, get and give hugs to and from? I'm .... facing "FOD Woman." (For those who don't know, assume FOD is nasty.)

As what we had was a generally positive, healthy, warm almost-peer relationship in terms of discussing life, curente events, etc.? I do not know what it's like to see her as Toxic People Landfill Fodder. Or as an ATM with a dust mop.

But I'm being termed Toxic Person Landfill Fodder because my PTSD makes her life difficult. OK, got it. Sucks, it's tough, but she's also been given multiple chances to participate in this as a family member, or to say her piece openly, and has not. Ouch.

So from a middle-aged kid's perspective? I'm still her kid. That's biology. That's sociology. She's my mom. Ditto the ologies.

But how we do the dance? Is changing and changed.

All that rambling comes down to: A going-away party to put them on notice of where the Mom Line is drawn? Is a kindness to all involved. I'd love it if my mom had bothered to tell me she erased hers and re-drew it as Indifferent Acquaintance. Being left clueless has been about half the stress and pain of my experience in this.

So that's this kid's perspective.

No idea if that helped or not, but that's where I am in the morass of my toxicity.

Each of the adults who call me, "Mom" has a different take on each and every item, both pro and con, on your list, Leo. I often think it would take pre-meditated multiple-personalities to fill the expectations, both pro and con, of all the slices of my Mommy-Do pie.

None of those generalized ideals for middle aged kids come with instruction manuals, Leo. I have zero functional role models in my life for any of them. Giving dance lessons to little children is allot less damaging to the toes than giving dance lessons to adult kids. Both of my sons and most of their peripherals have had bigger feet than mine for quite some time.

Sure wish I had a better job description for the Mom-to-adults Job, Leo. I kinda feel like my middle aged cherubs are expecting Mommy Magic similar to when I kissed four year old knees. Kissing middle aged boo boos just doesn't muster the same magic. . . Middle aged boo boos are generally stinkier, too. . . Yuk! ! !

Seems to me that it ought to be an adult-to-adult relationship by now, where we figure out each step as equals. Seems. . . The Cosmos forgot to ask my opinion again. . .

I admit that I am using the "Toxic People Landfill" in a quest for understanding. I don't understand the current "Toxic People" hype at all, but it keeps popping up in the most painful places. . . The bully taunt of the decade? ? ? Methinks it is beginning to trigger me worse than pedophile jokes and it seems to be everywhere. . .

Good morning both of you.
From the earliest age of understanding I shared with my daughter (Now 37) that I was a human before she was born, and after she grows and starts life on her own I will still be my own human. I expect her to be the best that she can be in her own life.
Alas her father did the opposite...Telling her you are my world and any wish you desire I will make happen, she took it all. And when he passed took out on me that I would not and could not fulfill his role.(Broke and on with my life as was needed to escape to live.) Though I never had the role but of loving her when the eggshells weren't too deep. She stayed with him until he passed in the home I left. Afterward (No responsibility for daily bills upkeep taxes...living needs) She lost the house due to taxes and house payments not being made. Sued me for life benefits and won under a change in ERISA law. Burnt through that money, bought a house, sold said house, bought another with proceed from that in a much better neighborhood (inside was a reno to make livable) And has now lost that one too ...because the taxes weren't paid. So everything she received from Dad, life ins, life benefits(lawsuit) his savings on a buyout to retire (30K),one month before he passed...up in smoke in 8 years.
But not the trips to Vegas, etc....or best newest gadgets for the family (how many G's on a phone does a 10 year old need?)as well as various other giveme's to her children, husband and self want... But no working knowledge of what it takes to meet basic needs until now.
Maybe the marriage is next too for her, since hubs#2 doesn't like living on a dime.

Finally she is seeing my life. And of course I should have taught her better about how to cope?. As she lays claim to what little I have when I pass (ART.House, car all other possessions I have saved or accumulated)) She gave me an electric shock a few times now when she suggested that it would be the ultimate sacrifice for her to deal with my estate but...okay die if you want, I can figure out how to dispose of your belongings.(Read: more money)

Sleeping in my car, working until I couldn't, almost self destructing from being hunted and constantly under nightmares and day-mares of PTSD, But also having a relationship and #2 happily, that lasted until death do us part. In the middle of her crisis brought on by greed and spending beyond her means to live big! I am at fault.

I am not sure at this point if you will ever recover the Norman Rockwell picture of parenthood, but not many ever really had that. It was posed for. I know I will never have that.

I commend you both for trying but your own line in the sand is what's important. As long as enabling happens so will confusion on reality.
Arfie, give them a bill for the last three months rent at a home in comparison ( no partials, include utilities)to what they are enjoying on yours and hubs money. Pay up or move. Then you can start being parent as opposed to provider.

Leo I love that you had that time with Mom, but that is no longer there...you are finding it hard to even find a shred of something to build on. But you brought her in to your home under very altruistic beliefs. She just changed, maybe gave up the front or mask that it took all of her strength to hold in place, now she is just like a child wanting the entitlement and your resources to keep her in a state of living with little or no responsibility. You are now your mother's mother.

The middle aged kids that learned to build a life socially and financially are a blessing, I have seen it happen just a few times. But the parents that can't let go or are imposed upon to maintain basics...regret, resent and anger follows. The children feel an entitlement to what ever is yours, even your basic needs. Which in this case for both of you is home, love, companionship with spouse...and growth (add to list whatever).

My heart as you both sort. I will deal with my daughters resentment, anger and even envy,but her eyes opening to what life really is. Maybe one day it will change, maybe not...But she is a human now with her own complications to grow from, or sink. She will find out what she's made of. I had to learn by force, she is learning by gluttonous behaviors...no more well to draw from, at least while I live.
Lines in the sand are mine now. If she withholds children...they grow from what is put into them. I am still grandma and will always be.

Only said in love and support to you both, use what works, save what may be helpful and toss the rest.

Jewells

Jewells, you make excellent points.

So much of this enters the fuzzy areas of how we define respect and honesty and obligation... Of what is owed andin which direction and to what degree.

My mom taught me to be responsible and to work and to pay my bills and to (blah blah blah) and so I can't imagine treating her as if she's supposed to cart me around in a metaphorical baby buggy with all the trappings. I got my degree, got work, and off I went---and called home regularly, we talked about life, etc., and so on. And I thought I was respecting her pretty well, but this all gets hazy. So situation-dependent.

Maybe, Arfie, them being sons is part of it? I'm recalling how my brother would visit my parents and leave amazing, stunning messes. Being who I was, and because my mom was ill and my dad worked, I or one of my sisters cleaned up (with resentment) rather than have one of our parents do it. After my mom passed and my dad was dx'd with mesothelioma did he clean (and to his credit) care for my dad.

My own son is twelve, and we're working on it. My chances of a self cleaning adult mY be higher since I never clean after his father (my husband).

For sure, parent/child relationships are complex when the children are still children.

Parent/adult relationships? Got drugs?

Still thinking I just want to hand in my resignation. Sounds like an absurd job from the get-go. Whose idea was this, anyway?

Well, nobody says we are mature on all levels at all times of life, right?

And.... I still want my mom, but as the *person*, I "think".... I dunno.

I may piss a few people off with this one, but oh well. Artie, I don't think your PTSD has anything to do with your thirty something little kids who don't want to grow up. I think it is just a generational thing. Moms and Dads think that if Little Johnny and Little Janey don't go to college right after High School and get their degrees, that they will never amount to a hill of beans. And the moms and dads think that they will be failures as parents if their kids don't get their degrees.

So Little Johnny and Little Janey go off to college and party their asses off. They do enough to skimp by and make their grades. They come home during summer break and work a little part-time job at Starbucks to get their little bit of gas money and spending money and party the rest the summer away. And so it goes. Round and round she goes, where she stops, nobody knows. And Mom and Dad are boasting with pride, because Little Johnny and Little Janey are doing so well.

So Little Johnny and Little Janey get their degrees in their mid to late twenties. Problem is, Little Johnny and Little Janey would not know what an honest, hard day's work was if it was an extra large Domino's Pepperoni Pizza smashed in their face. And what they get taught in their classes is that the world owes them everything. They are entitled to x.....y....and z. So when the hard, cold realities of the real world smock them in the face, they are as lost as a blind puppy.

Parents nowadays are too worried about being friends to their kids than actual parents. They want to be popular with their kids and their kids friends so they will be the coolest parents on Facebook. Parents nowadays give their kids all of the latest tech gadgets not so much for the kid's benefit, but so the kids will be out of their hair so the parents can play with their I-Phones and go on their dating sites and Facebook. Artie, it is not you at all. It is a generational thing. I for one hope it gets broken soon for the next generation's sake, but I am fearful it will only get worse.

A sweeping characterization of an entire generation is convenient, but given the circumstances, I'm more inclined to wonder about the idea of motherhood that's causing all the angst. Are mothers meant ot fix the past once it's uncovered? That's probably bugging my mom, not that she'll say so.) ... Are people supposed to use guilt against parents when the people are legally if not emotionally adults? Is succumbing to guilt over (fill in blank) "acceptable" because it's "what moms are supposed to do"? Even if it's not earned guilt? And when do parents stop loving their kids and wanting to protect them and help them? Pretty deep stuff crossing my mind on this thread. ...

Leo,Are mother's expected to fix the past.... No one can undo the past, just learn from it.

My daughter grew up with a loving mother but one that learned early to provide for living...even a very meek living. I really hate that her father did just as much in the opposite direction, by giving her and giving into her, but he was making up for driving me away. Which he finally told me many years later after a lot of therapy. Just when I thought he was finally healing, growing and getting ready to close the wallet some, where she was concerned (the week before he had papers drawn to evict her and her family@ 29 yrs.)..he passed.

The past is what it is, only now can be changed and tomorrow steered in a better direction, for ourselves.

52 generalizations in that full encompassing sweep is great for politics, but rarely works individually. We are all different. I know that because of my abuse, I could do all the things that the books said, but not fully give into letting my heart live in the moment...because I was taught too early to choose my words and actions for self preservation. It was reinforced too many times as I grew. Those that you are supposed to love, should have had no barriers to, were the most damaging to my being. Wires crossed and I went through the motions. But I have seen it work with others, the benefit of a large and extended family at least gave me something to go on. Though even that was not enough, some are takers, some are givers and some go through the appropriate researched motions, I did a lot of research. Then some are balanced....the few I have seen, seem that way, anyway.

Jewels, common sense tells us that there are always exceptions to every rule. There is no rule that encompasses every individual. I know that through first hand knowledge with young people who have gone onto college, gotten out, and have become fine young adults.

But a trend is a trend. Call it politics if you wish if that works for you. But I think it would be hard to deny that the sense of entitlement that the majority has in today's society has not served today's young people very well. As a matter of fact, it has done tremendous harm to society in general.

Do you think if we were to go back or 4 decades, would it be commonplace to see adults in their thirties living in Mommy and Daddy's house? I seriously doubt it. Now It is commonplace to see adults in their twenties and early thirties still living in Mommy and Daddy's house.

I still believe that parents today are more worried about being friends and popular with their kids than they are preparing them for the cold, cruel world. Instilling in them values and morals that go against what is hip and cool, but will provide them with the foundation for a fulfilling life. And I will say again, I know not every parent is like this and you know that too, we are just speaking of majority trends.

And in many instances, it has absolutely nothing to do with the lack of good parenting, but just stupid decisions that young people freely choose to make. We were young and surely made our share of these. But with the proper foundation, dumb choices are made and learned from quickly and an about face is made in short order. My own personal opinion is that the entitlement society Is the most prominent factor in young people not entering responsible adulthood when they should.