Hey, a little off topic, I know, but I thought of you today when I heard on tv that it is the end of Ramadan and a festival day, right? Happy end of Ramadan! :-)

Deli, great reminder---and hope you had a blessed Ramadan--- and I have read the Koran. Simply translating that from Arabic to English is enough of a headache, I suspect---I have it in English, sinc ei don't read Arabic---and there are as many things that can bwisted, etc., as in any text.

Mind you, again, I live where I am not considered Christian because I was raised Catholic. Which is one of the oldest sects within Christianity. So.... yeah. Religion? Headache. Spirituality? I can find more of it by contemplating the passing of clouds or the flight of butterflies than I usually can in sermons... THat's where I find the Divine. In Creation. Not some sermon that takes, say, a beautiful verse like Ecclesiastes 3 and turns it into "And now i's the season for giving, so please pass your money into the basket as it comes down the aisle." (Also a true story.)

Fascinating stuff...

Okay. LOVING the discussion here!

I re-watched the movie "Oh God" recently and I love how George Burns (playing God) says, "I go by many names - Yaweh, Jesus, Buddha, Allah" and I also love that he says, "Free will. I gave you the world and all you needed. You can love each other or kill each other. It's up to you."

God is God. Religion is human.

I do not understand Catholic school. For me church was a lot of sunshine, rainbows and bunnies. We were told we were valued - children of God - and Jesus provided a great example for a happy life. Sex was regarded as part of life - something to be respected but not a bad thing. Sex was kind of in the same category as food. Enjoying food - or sex - is part of life and both are blessings from God. But abusing either - or overdoing it - can be unhealthy.

My ex went to Catholic school and got beaten up by teachers, rapped on the knuckles with a ruler, told all about hell in gory detail - just for THINKING about sinning. I think it's a very damaging thing to do to a child.

I'm learning a lot and finding a lot to chew on in this discussion. Thank you! And thanks Deli for you input. I'll look at the link.

I imagine most life-affirming texts have the same message - love your neighbor, be nice, share, help each other. Not sure why we have to go to war because, while the basis of our faith is the same, you don't eat shrimp or you dress differently. That's kooko to me.

I think one of my issues with various faiths is the "our way is the only right way." I think there are many paths to God.

Reed, i'm with you.

We dont' go to war against the lactose-intolerant or anyone who wears orange----so what's the deal with getting that fussed over it because it's "doctrine"?

I will say that my mom made sure I heard about the beauty of the spirtual aspects of the faith,a nd also about the kindnesses and so on --- and tauhgt me about sex as part of life, ecause she was a nurse and knew if she was matter-of-fact, and understood about it, then I'd handle the talk about STDs and so on much better.

She and I went to the same school, in fact, so she always tried to counter the strictness there... but I have a scar on one hand b/c I had messy handwriting. Metal-edged ruler. Ow!

My husband was raised similarly to you, Reed, and finds religion baffling. is parents were careful to raise their children to view faith and spirtuality as this encompassing, lvoing thing---b/c both came from super-strict families with a lot of Bible-thumping and thumping with Bibles.

I remember one of my friends in college telling me how glad she was to meet Chrsitians like me, who didn't judge her for not drinking or partying away the weekends. We'd sit around eating popcorn and she'd show me photo albums of her homeland and we'd talk about how alike things were in the end, and how weird it was that such things didn't get on the news!

Wow, I'm totally avoiding my work today but I love these discussions, too, REed. I can't figure out if there is any such thing as a "religion" for someone like me.... scarred by it, scared by many of its stricter adherents ---

My mother was an alcoholic, dad was Air Force. The marriage ended when I was 5. Mom remarried twice and her third husband killed her in front of me. We were taught right from wrong but we never went to Church. I remember mom telling me that the devil would take me to Hell if I lied. I responded by telling her that I would get out the water hose and put his fire out if he ever appeared to me. We had an Aunt and Uncle who took us to Church from time to time but I believe that we only went twice. This same couple adopted my sister and I after mom died. We went to Church twice a week, said our prayers at bedtime and said grace over our meals. Bible reading was mandatory at bedtime since we didn't have a TV set. Shortly after we came to live with them the beatings started. My sister who was 6 and suffering from the trauma of losing her mother took to bed wetting. The belt was the answer she received. It wasn't uncommon to be slapped across the face or hit in the mouth with a spoon because it was found in the drawer with food on it. I was the family dishwasher. I grew to hate these people. But for some reason I never made a connection between them and Church or God. I saw two Christians who were abusive, had tempers and believed in God. Of course we were taught that dancing, playing cards and going to movies was wrong. As were drinking and pre-marital sex. I loved going to Church though. For some reason, I seemed to able to grasp the concepts of God and I had very little problem understanding the Scriptures. After I got out of the Military I went to Bible College. The young people there flocked to me and I seemed to be the one that everyone approached when they had a problem with something or someone. I learned a great many things at Bible College. One of the most important lessons I learned comes from Matthew 7:16 "You shall know them by their fruit...." This Scripture is perfectly clear. I've seen many Godly men and women over the years. I've also encountered many who claimed to be Godly yet their behavior was anything but. We call it Judging these days and many shun it because they know whether their lives measure up to God's Word or not. I hear the phrase "don't judge me" all of the time and I really don't think that people understand the concept of judgement. I know that many here would be upset if I were to point out the wrong behavior in your lives. I know that I would. Yet we have no problem Judging someone like Adolf Hitler, or some celebrity or Public Official that we don't like. But I digress. I understand completely where most of you are coming from. I can understand your reluctance and confusion when it comes to religion. No one wants to be told that their behavior is wrong or that they are going to hell for certain beliefs or actions. But the Bible is pretty clear on what is Sin and what isn't. Unfortunately mankind has lumped Sins into categories and we are supposed to avoid the really bad ones while we still continue to enjoy the lesser ones. It was years later when I really began to read Scripture that I found out that dancing isn't a sin. Some dancing is purely erotic and for people who are supposed to be chaste before marriage it probably isn't a good idea to awaken certain feelings until the proper time. I discovered that drinking isn't a sin either, getting drunk is though. Playing cards is okay too as is going to movies although I draw the line on certain movies, books and music.
But why would I throw out the baby with the bathwater because I grew up with ungodly parents? Just because they blew it doesn't mean that the Bible is wrong? The Bible was actually written by two different methods. In the Greek there is the word Logos which means "written word". Then there is Rhema "which means "spoken word". Much of the Bible is written using Logos. But there are many passages that come directly from God. Christians should rely upon both. Rhema comes when the Holy Spirit reveals a particular truth to us in the Logos. For instance, the scripture I used in my last posting. John 15. The Holy Spirit revealed something very important to me that I hadn't seen before even though I've read that chapter a hundred times. I received what we call Revelation Knowledge. Unfortunately many read the Bible and twist the verses to mean things that were never intended by the authors and by God.
There is a joke that makes the rounds at Bible Colleges.
A man was faced with a problem and decided to use the Bible in order to find the answer that he was looking for. He decided that what ever passage of scripture that he opened up to would be the one that he would follow. So he took his un-opened Bible and opened it up and pointed to a verse. The Verse said, "And Judas went out and hung himself." The man closed the Bible and replied, "well I am sure that God doesn't want me to do that." So he opened it up again and pointed to a random verse on the page. It said, "Go and do likewise." He slammed the Bible shut. He decided to try one more time so again he opened the book up and selected a random verse. "Whatever you do, do quickly."
Of course this is a poor way to use the Word of God to solve our problems but there are many passages that I've found helpful. One is Isaiah 26:3 "I will keep him in perfect peace if he will keep his mind focused upon me." I know, like me, that many of you are searching for peace. We pray for it, we try everything imaginable to obtain it. But if we would simply learn how to focus our minds upon God then Perfect, complete Peace would be ours. It is so easy, so simple.
I am sorry I do tend to get long winded. There is so much richness in the Word of God, so much that Power that is available to us if we would just ask for it. God isn't some boogey man out to slay you every time you utter a swear word or tell a lie. His Love covers a multitude of Sins. His power can change our hearts and our lives to the point where we no longer sin. Don't allow the failings of other to discourage you from looking to the only Source with the Power to Heal, to Help, to Love.

MrMG, I think maybe I'm expressing myself badly. Often happens.

If you find that much comfort in the Bible, great for you. Given the situation in your childhood, I can understand.

But organized religion always will make me itch. And I distinguish it from both faith and from reliance on any scripture as a life guide.

I don't think anyone's saying the Bible is "wrong"----but that the way it's used and interpreted is often very wrong, and that makes for religious doctrines and practices that do *not* encourage trust in religion, religious institutions, or the scriptures that people use to justify some very odd thigns in the world.

I also think God is a heck of a lot bigger than words, or buildings, but that's about faith and spirit, not religion or scriptures, and religion is the thread topic.

I find it interesting that in my life I am judged a good person by Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and even neo-pagans, but those who identify as Christian-for-a-given-narrow-definition-of-Christian are first in line to tell me I'm hell-bound in a handcart. Oh, and I have issues with atheists. To them, I'm amoral for having faith. So I just say I do my best to follow th eteachings of Jesus and that's what I got.

You've got me beat on education in this area, as a graduate of bible school, whereas I've just got a lot of questions and two near-death experiences that provided their own sort of revelation. Then again, the fact I love science already damns me to hellfire everlasting to many people of various religious denominations and/or faiths. Ironic, since as a child I wanted to be a priest and give my life in service to God.

You know Leo I appreciate your honesty in this area. I believe that we are both on the same page, at least I hope that we are. There are certainly some gray areas as well as many that are black and white. I don't know you so I am not familiar with what might keep you from going to Heaven. God is most certainly bigger than any Church or Denomination. It is most unfortunate that many spend so much time and energy and even lives to prove that they are right and others are wrong. There is criteria for entering into the Kingdom of Heaven and they are spelled out in the Word of God. Unfortunately many have added their own views and perspectives onto the requirements and God simply shakes His head and laughs. I will simply say this, if anyone ever has any questions regarding Christianity and the Word of God I will be more than happy to help find the answers if I don't know them already. I am not here to promote my own beliefs but simply help other find the Peace and Healing that we are all here for.

Offer appreciated, MrMg....

Gotta be hoenst somewhere.... DS PTSD feels like a rare place to be able to do that.

That said, I'd say if you go by the Seven Deadly Sins I was taught as a kid? The one that'll get me would probably be Wrath. Which,t o me, is the child of Fear, but that's a whole other ball game.

Y'know what religion reminds me of? The Tower of Babel. Like at one point, the whole human race probably had some unified idea of this one great path, and then.... suddenly it's the babble of a thousand different voices that don't speak the same language at all. SO much more about division than unity... That's why I always liked the story of the Good Samaritan. And the healing of lepers. And so on. Felt like there was a place for me in all that---for my voice.

Wow, I just have to say again that I feel so lucky to be a part of this group!

I was raised Catholic; I was even the cantor and got a college scholarship from them. (Now I feel guilty, lol!)

But I got that judgment, too from born agains that I was not "truly" Christian b/c Catholics do not study the Bible and the Pope was too worldly and we had stuff that wasn't directly in the Bible and had a lot of Pagan customs, etc.

My answer to that is, what's wrong with Pagans? They were around before Jesus (pbuh) and worshiped God as they understood him. The original Turks had a Sky God; very similar to American Indians, but also realized a single God beyond this Earth.

MG- I love that joke. Know about the one of the man sinking on a raft, praying to God? Along came a boat- the man said, "I'm waiting for God to save me." Along came a plane; the man said, "I'm waiting for God to save me. Finally, the Coast Guard came. The man said the same thing. When in Heaven the man said, "My God, why didn't you SAVE me?"

God said, "What are you talking about? I sent you a boat, a plane and the Coast Guard!!!"

: )

Good one, Deli! Ha!

Deili, ROTFL, I love thao ne, too!

And I'm glad Ito hear 'm not the only one who ran into that judgment. Always baffled me.... Particularly as they all celebrate Christmas, which was ripped off from ROman Saturnalia, LOL!...

I admit, every relkgious institution has its flaws --- don't care if it's a small local ndependent church or part of the Orthodox Churches or Roman Catholic or what---- but I kinda like the fact that there's still remnants of that ancient pre-Christian understanding in the rituals and holidays/holy ays. Because they do mark important things in parts of us that predat writing, but I wax philosophical, and I suck at philosophy.

Small note to Leo - I don't think atheists would judge you as amoral for having faith, just irrational.

Donna, LOL, I asked how faith made me amoral and I was told by my aunt that faith is too irrational to allow for morality!

A classmate in college who was atheist said he thought faith led to immorality because it meant the person was a hypocrite if, like me, had faith and also wanted to be a scientist.

I don't think faith is irrational--- or rational, for tha tmatter. It's apples and oranges to me. Faith is about my soul. Rationall thought is of the mind. The two interact but do not necessarily negate one another.

That said, I've made distinction between head-knowing and soul-knowing since I was in my late teens. Nothing in my faith is irrational to me, as it does not encourage irrational behavior or irrational attitudes. My upbringing and PTSD do more of that than my faith by far.

I do wonder if the capacity for faith is inborn--DNA-related---something like that. B/c I dont' remember ever not having faith. Even when I was 3 or 4. It wa slike I knew. Weird, but so am I.

I feel a lot like you do, Leo. I am very interested in this subject and would discuss it further if I wasn't too tired to think straight.