"""""""""""""""""then later in the car she is fussing, which he hates so he says "when shes like this I want to punch her".... I know he would never do that"""""""""""""""""""


With due respect, I have
to disagree with you. You
really DON'T know that he
would never do that.

As it is, from her very
earliest moments in
life, she is being told
by one of the two most
important people in her
life that she is stupid and
that if her world breaks
apart, it's HER fault.

If you leave, yes. . . .
it will effect her. There
will probably be hard
times.

If you stay and he
continues to shape
her beliefs about
herself and her world
the way he already is,
(and it's not an "if"
that he will do that. . . .
he WILL do that),
she will grow up
DEVASTATED.

She will grow up
believing all the
things he's saying.
SHE doesn't understand
that he "doesn't mean it."
What she hears is what
her truth is and will be.

Not you nor anyone
else, can stop him
from being abusive.
Your getting in his
face, shoving him
and instructing him
to never do that
again will have
no positive effect,
not if you do that
one time, a dozen
times, five thousand
times. The only
people to change
will be you and
your helpless daughter.

Both you and your daughter
are in far more danger
than you want to believe.

Every day he's allowed
to parent her like that,
is another day she's
hearing his horrible,
toxic, abusive words,
telling her she's a
terrible person.
Have no doubt
for one instant
that she's already
absorbing and
believing what
she's hearing.


Please. Please,
please, PLEASE. . . . . . .

Get yourself and
your daughter some
help that will
prevent that
from happening!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"if I leave she will be affected " She will be affected by any choice you make, because she has no choice. But she will take the information and store it into her being and personality, then her actions and reactions. So if you leave because Dad is talking or shouting about harming her,("when shes like this I want to punch her"...) at 2 "like this" is just her, so he is talking about punching her for being her. If you stand up and leave while explaining that you believe he is wrong to say such things and why,simply because she earned love by being born , then you are the hero.
BTW it's better to do it sooner than later, a child is adaptable easier when younger. But later? the longer she is exposed the harder it will be to reconcile it, causing more disruption in her values.
So now for you. What do you fear losing so much that you will stay? Because this is ultimately about what you think is acceptable behavior, what is the line you won't cross? Then realize as you cage yourself in, you are teaching your daughter the same caging techniques, but she is learning from both of you. This will be her model of relationships and justifications.

Support.

Thank you Heal and Jewells1

Jewells1 - I am dealthly afraid he will get custody of her, that would kill me. Or even 50/50. Actually even 20/80 would kill me ahhhh... I just want it to be me and my daughter without his influence.

I am also worried that even if she is with me full time he will have power over me and micromanage me from afar. I worry he will question all my decisions as her mother and fight me on every last thing.... Maybe he would even get more verbally abusive from afar since we do still need to communicate for our daughters sake???

I want an easy out but I fear he will either take her from me or make our lives hell!

He's already
making your
lives hell.

And, sorry.

There are no easy outs.

"Fast forward to today, he will not seek councelling because he says he knows the problem is with him" He knows he has issues and has a previous divorce to show for it.

TW.
Nothing is easy, but staying in a bad situation because you are afraid of trying? Has he attacked you to the point of your life being in danger? Choking, holding you down? use of fire arms or weapons to control you? If so then don't talk it over, don't work on this and get help an a safe plan to get free. And if you fear this possibility is within him even at 10%, still get moving and out while you are intact.

Those if us who had bad childhoods tend to excuse this behavior too long. We might even think that we have enough love patience and understanding for two, but that's because we were used to it. It looked normal. We have certainly seen worse....all excuses, for staying in a dangerous situation. We want that family picture so bad we don't think about the quicksand we are standing in, the longer we stay the harder it is to leave. Then once you have sank enough with the eroding of your esteem and the only strength you have while holding up your child to keep her safe...is going to be him. Then he will take her and say "see it was all mommy's fault, she wasn't strong enough"
I heard these words and more at the end of a sawed off shot gun at the side of my head on the basement stairs for 4 hours. Echoes of what you mention and his plan to get away with it...by the way a fairly decent one (Maybe 2 years in for snapping?...because he had a diagnosis). He passed out. I got my ducks in a row as soon as I could and left, but even then it took four years. Job, vehicle, money put away, safe retreat...
I am still here. But I remember the fear everyday. My daughter sees the effect on me and her, and now she is raising children on a second marriage. Partly because at first I wanted that happy family picture and stayed too long in the fire.
He was thought of,even to his death, to be a great guy to those who didn't know him well.

There are a lot of resources now that were not available when I was your age, use them.

Hello Jenny,
I remember those days. I have been living away from my abuser for more than 5 years, but I remember clearly the way it felt to be in the car with a toddler (or 2) and have my ex filled with road rage. I remember when he would get in yelling matches with strangers. I remember when he would yell and swear at me and the kids in stores, in malls, in cars or anywhere in public. I remember thinking to myself that he was correct and that I couldn't do anything right. I loved the way h.e.a.l. compared living in a toxic relationship with lead paint peeling from the walls because that is exactly what it is.
I finally found the strength to leave my abuser (and thrive) because of my children.
Leaving was a difficult decision to make and life is not always roses. But I still choose to be a single parent because this peace that we now have is worth so much more than the extra vacations, the newest gadgets, the best clothes or living in the best house. I'm still working each day to de-program my children from the past, but I am so grateful that I left. Furthermore......my children tell me how much happier they are now and they even thank me for getting us to where we are now.

PS.... you had mentioned that you don't drive because you are too nervous. Were you always too nervous to drive? Or has someone been chipping away at your confidence?

Jewells1, I am so sorry for your experience, I am so glad you got out when you did.

And No I have never feared for my life, he has only "slapped" me 3 times in our 5 year relationship but of course has said things like he would like to through me out the window to see if feminists can fly, he would like to smash my head into the wall, he would like to throw me out of the car.... just threats with no real back up behind them thank goodness.

I am glad you made a better life for you and your daughter.

Lillyj... NO I have always been a nervous driver but yes he doesn't make things easier when I have tried to drive in the past, screaming at me and cursing at me when I made an error and now he says he doesn't trust me to drive my daughter anywhere so I am going to have to drive without her in the car for a while. I worked in a personal injury law firm for almost 10 years (car accident victims) so I think this accelerated my driving fear also.

Wow I can't believe you can relate to my experiences so much, thank you for sharing and knowing that I am not alone! Does your husband have any contact or custody of your kids? Visitation? Did he make your life hell for leaving? Is there any advise you can give me when I do get the courage to leave? I feel so foolish and want to believe that my daughter is too young for all of the things my husband is doing to affect her yet.... I am hoping that is the case....

Sorry, Hon.

Your daughter is
already being effected.

A genuine baby, only
months old, living under
the roof of abuse,
is effected by that abuse,
even when the baby
is not the target.

A child even slightly
older than a very small
baby, is a sponge,
absorbing everything.
She's like
newly-poured
wet cement.

Everything that happens
in her environment gets
imprinted into her
developing psyche
and her personality.
Everything that gets
imprinted in the wet
cement will remain
in the cement as it
sets up and as it dries.
Everything that gets
imprinted will be
part of her and
part of her life
for the rest
of her life.

Your daughter is
absorbing
EVERYTHING.

If all this sounds
intense and harsh,
it's because the
reality is totally
intense,
and the legacy
of growing up
under the roof
of abuse
IS harsh.

Every day she lives
with your abuser,
she is a day older,
a day more mature
and a day more
vulnerable.

Every single day
in your daughter's
life at this time
is as precious
as she is.

Please don't
throw away
another day
of your
daughter's life
(or YOURS).

He's already stolen
too much of both.
Those are days
neither of you
will ever
get back.

My ex still has access to the kids (mine are getting older and more vocal about their disapproval of his ways). When they were younger, I would cry every time he took them for the weekend. (Now they have their cell phones and know to call/message me if they need to get picked up). It's funny how different of a person I've become since I've gotten away from the daily abuse. When it comes to my children I have become ferocious. My self-confidence is soaring. I know I can survive anything because I've survived him. I don't feel constant fear anymore....in fact I almost feel fearless. It's a very peaceful and freeing feeling. Life is not always easy, and I still haven't even trusted myself to do a lot of dating....(I've learned that I have terrible taste in men lol). Leaving was so hard because of so many reasons....it was probably the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. But other than my children, finding the strength to leave him is the thing that brings me my most pride. No matter how bad my day may be....it will always be 1000 times better than my best day when I was with him. Walking on egg shells (or shards of glass), always being afraid that I might piss him off, always fearing for my children's mental health and well-being....and our physical safety as well, the constant threat of humiliation and embarrassment.....all of it kept me spinning so that I was not my best self. I couldn't be the parent that my children deserved. I spent most of their early years wishing time away and living in my own head so that I could get away from him and the abuse.
Something else to consider; they say that personality is formed by the age of 6. You are so lucky. Your daughter is still young and you can save her from the damage of a toxic home life. My biggest regret is that I didn't get my kids out sooner. We work hard everyday to overcome the trauma my children experienced. I don't know if they'll ever be whole. I feel an immense amount of guilt for 'breaking' them. They are just starting to have normal relationships and friendships. Their anger and lack of trust in people has held them back for a very long time. If I could jump into a time machine, I would tell my younger self that I had every tool I needed to be successful on my own. I would have told myself that EVERY negative thought that popped into my head was really just his voice crowding out my own inner voice. (For instance, when my ex would question my choices and ability to parent, I would have not allowed HIS words or HIS voice to penetrate my mind). Jenny, you are not 'just' anything. You are a mama and the light to the world for that little girl. You are more capable than you could ever imagine. Children don't need fancy vacations, they need their moms to be whole. They need their mom's attention and time. My kids don't talk about the trips to Disney, they talk about painting cardboard boxes and making forts. They talk about playing in the yard with the dog, the sprinkler and the neighbor's kids. Your daughter's most precious memories will be of the two of you laughing and just being together. I wish you all of the love and support in the world. Making the decision to live abuse-free is very scary....but you too have every tool that you need to be successful.

What an awesome response.

lillyj . . . . . . that was so
articulate, so beautiful
and so POWERFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you h.e.a.l. I've turned to Dailystrength for many years. I found a lot of support and wisdom on this site that has gotten me to a much better place. I still have a long way to go.......but that's okay, as long as I moving in the right direction ;)

Thank you so much for sharing lillyj!
Do you mind if I ask you a few questions about your situation, it seems very similar to mine?
I have difficulty in labeling my husband behavior as "verbal abuse" sometimes because when we are having "good moments" I feel silly or maybe even foolish for "labeling" his behavior. I am sure you understand what I mean. Its so easy to forgive the past behavior when things are going smoothly....
What was your final straw? Or was it just a build up over time? Was it ever physical? because I also have trouble validating my leaving when its just "words" you know....I am an adult I should be able to get over the name calling and anger issues etc....
Is my husband similar to yours, what I mean is, does the things I describe compare to your situation or am I blowing things out of proportion?
How old were your children when you finally left? Does your husband only see your children every other weekend? Did her fight you on the issue of custody etc?

Sorry for all the questions but I am sure you remember the push and pull struggle of deciding whether to go or not....

PS I just got back from visiting my parents with my daughter for 3 days so I am feeling more optimistic about my situation because I have "had a break" for 3 days..... so my judgment is clouded or a bit confused currently.

Thank you to everyone for sharing!

"If I leave she will be affected"

It's already been said, she IS being affected. In a very negative, lifelong manner.

Take her away, keep her safe. Or she might end up just like him. She's on her way already.

Please gather the strength and courage to end this relationship.

Get the hell out!

I hope lily will answer, but if you don't mind, I'd like to add my 2 cents worth again. Your judgment will stay clouded (and get way worse) until you are away from the toxicity for way more than 3 days. Abuse is rarely constant. The 'good moments' are what abusers make sure happen in order: 1. keep their their 'source(s)' confused and 2. dangle that carrot of the 'good times' to insure the source will stay.

Everyone's breaking point is different. So what was the straw that broke the camels back for me would most likely be different than the ones that broke h.e.a.l.'s or lilly's backs. And it would be different for you.

You mentioned in your last comment that you have a hard time labeling his behavior as abuse when its not physical. He may not be hitting, slapping, punching, pushing, popping, tickling, grabbing you. He may not be throwing things, punching walls, slamming doors, hurting animals, driving like a maniac, etc., but THAT DOES NOT MATTER.

Abuse is NOT just physical or sexual (not just talking about rape when I say sexual). Verbal abuse definitely causes mental, emotional and spiritual abuse, and it definitely results in physical issues. One is a 'cloudy' brain. Others are physical symptoms of anxiety (which I would bet your baby is feeling inside of her whether she shows it or not, and in ways you would or wouldn't expect). There are also physical things that happen like upset stomach, headaches, etc., It is a well known fact that 'stress' causes or contributes to most every physical condition there is and the last reports I've read say 'stress' is responsible at least in part for between 80 & 95 % of dr visits! (And abuse definitely comes under the umbrella of 'stress.')

Please forgive me if I am repeating myself. But the kicker here is that abuse - just witnessing abuse as a child and not actually being abused - can cause the hippocampus part of the brain to SHRINK up to 20%!!!! That is considered brain damage! We now know that abuse causes damage to the brain in both children and adults who were/are "JUST" verbally abused w/no sign of physical abuse.

Your child is already an abuse victim. She's already acting out. She will more than likely have trouble setting and keeping boundaries. She could have trouble recognizing abuse when it happens. She could grow up to be an abuser or be abused or both. Unless you get help for BOTH of you, this will happen:

Children learn what they live
and
live what they learn.

By staying, you are contributing to her learning this.

Please don't think by telling her what her dad does is wrong will change the outcome. it will NOT. Children - actually most everyone (children and adults) BELIEVE ACTIONS OVER WORDS. (not yelling w/the all caps, just trying to emphasize). She will grow up confused. She will either end up with an abuser or become one herself - or both. Her already acting out is a sign that needs to be paid attention to. Now.

I know its scary thinking about leaving. It is for most of us. But now those of us are out, can attest to the fact that while it may be hard, its WAY better to live in a non-toxic, non-abusive environment than it was to stay.

If you want to be able to "label' his behavior (and believe me, each and every one of the examples you gave are definitely label-able as abuse), please read Patricia Evans book, The Verbally Abusive Relationship. It's quite an eye opener. Like you I denied I was in an abusive relationship because he 1. didn't hit me and 2. didn't call me names. That does NOT mean there is no abuse as you will see if you read the book and check out various DV websites. DV stands for Domestic Violence and they are very clear in saying that DV is NOT just hitting or rape or even 'just name calling.'

And please reread all of the comments here. They are right on the money. You have heard from children of abuse and spouses/SO's of abusers. If you don't believe us, at least do some research. You will find that it will bear out what we're all saying. Please do this for your daughter's emotional, mental, spiritual and physical safety.