I just want to jump in here...

The words 'what if' popped up a little earlier, and caught my eye.

We are not dealing with a hypothetical situation, here; we are dealing with Bax's situation. Having seen the accumulation of his posts (as opposed to just this one), I think it is fair to say that it IS an abusive relationship that he is in.

Why?

Abusers have rigid patterns of thought and behaviour. Patterns, as in persistent occurrences of the same thoughts and behaviours. Looking back through Bax's posts, there are REPEATED and CONSISTENT reports of his wife saying these same things that he posts here, REGARDLESS of the situation at hand at the time. Not just this time, but EVERY time a concern was raised to her. That is a rigid pattern.
It shows either an unwillingness or inability to adapt to the emotional nature of an individual situation, and the emotional needs of another person.

The same happened with my husband. For ten years straight.

There is a big difference between, "I am sorry you are hurt," and "I am sorry I hurt you."

Our feelings are felt within us, but to say that others cannot provoke or affect them is wrong. I felt things as a result of my husband's actions, that I HATED feeling, and that I would never have felt, had he not done the things he did. I was NOT responsible for causing those feelings, and I resent the implication that anyone who has been abused was responsible for causing their own feelings. The only way for me to stop those feelings from being caused anew was to remove myself from my husband's presence.

So, while it may be acceptable for someone who did not mean to hurt another person to say, "I am sorry you are hurt," it is not the same coming from an abuser. Let me tell you, cos I've had up to ten of them: abusers LIVE to hurt other people. And "I am sorry you are hurt," said by them is just another way to evade taking responsibility for their behaviour.

The words, "I don't have a context for what else is happening in your marriage," also appeared earlier.

The context can be pieced together by going right the way back through Bax's posts.

Abusers manipulate language in order to manipulate us. It is a fact. It is in self-help books, and all over the internet. That does not mean that someone else saying something that an abuser once said is themselves an abuser, though! Rigid and consistent patterns, remember.

And you can only identify a pattern if you look at enough of the available information.

Just saying... xx

"There is a big difference between, "I am sorry you are hurt," and "I am sorry I hurt you." Brilliantly and succinctly put, Bunny!

Kevin, I'm going to have to look into that SET technique - I've never heard of that one. Not sure how I feel about her therapist advising her to take LESS responsibility for her actions, though... Research time!

bax - it's not supposed to be taking less responsibility, but that is the way it may come out at first. I know when dealing with a borderline, it's important that they hear you care about them and their feelings and aren't abandoning them or the relationship, but also important to express that your feelings are different but also valid. It does no good to either party to apologize if you truly feel you did nothing wrong, but it is also very important to make sure to not invalidate that the other person was hurt. It's a fine line, and I am wondering if that is what she was trying to do. Accept that you were hurt and let you know she hears that, and recognizing that she does not want to give an empty apology. If she was using the SET technique, she would have said something like:

"Bax, I care about you and your feelings, and having a good relationship with you is very important to me. I'm sorry that facebook post caused you hurt, and I understand how you interpreted it that way. I wasn't trying to be cruel or hurt you, I was only trying to express my thoughts that our relationship is worth working on, and unfortunately I was not clear or direct."

But of course, I am no expert in this, nor do I know what she was thinking or if she was trying to use some kind of learned communication technique. But she didn't completely flip her lid (I don't know if she has done that in the past or not) and that to me says she is at least thinking about your feelings somehow.

Rockin- that's an excellent point. Those of us that have been abused pick up on things like that.

Another example would be the "I'm sorry, but..." If you have never been emotionally abused, or if the person you are dealing with is emotionally healthy, you may be okay with the "i'm sorry, but..." I'm guessing everyone has said that before. Sometimes what is said after the "but..." is a valid point that should be considered. But from someone who has abused you, it feels like more abuse.

personal examples from the other night:

Me at one point: "I'm sorry that I made you feel unstable when I said you had to leave. But you were screaming at me and insulting me, and my natural reaction is to feel like I am dying and to get away ASAP."

And another point she said to me, "I'm sorry you felt hurt that I said you were a messy eater. But you ARE a messy eater and I can't stand to look at you sometimes, and eventually I am not going to want to eat with you anymore."

Is there a difference between the two examples above?

While I can accept that Bax has been abused by this partner, I don't see that the particular exchange being discussed is an example of abuse.

It's not blatant abuse, nor is it particularly damaging.

But in order to be in that magic 1% of abusers who can change, they must be willing to accept the responsibility for their own actions and mistakes and the abuse. First and foremost. Step one is, and always has been admitting that you have a problem. She did not do so here, even when I expressed that I had been hurt by her words. She didn't have to know that in advance, but once she did know that, then she was partially responsible for the effect they had on me.

And minimizing, diminishing, public shaming, passive-aggressiveness - those are tools of an abuser. Being willing to allow another person be hurt rather than accept pain - even pain they've rightfully earned, or a brief moment in humility... That's so much one of the hallmarks of abuse, it's practically definitional.

fiberjunkie47: As I said already, you probably would see if you read the whole story back through his posts. This one post is merely an example, and yes, can appear to be 'nothing' or an anomaly without the rest of the pattern...

Also, for what it is worth, many friends who saw or heard about ONE instance of my husband's behaviour, initially passed it off as, "Oh, I'm sure he didn't really mean it like that."

That's a fair view of it based on what they saw or heard at the time, but it does not address the hundreds of times, in public and private, that he did that sort of thing to me every day, over everything! It DOES ignore and invalidate my experience of his behaviour. And my side does figure in the equation.

To ignore the significance of the persistence of the behaviour, even when the information is accessible and after your attention has been drawn to its existence, and to still then dismiss one incidence of it as though it doesn't represent anything abusive at all does NOT equal accepting that the person "has been abused"; it actually equals denial that the abuse is taking or has taken place.

My friends later revised their opinion when they learned the truth about the regularity of my husband's behaviour. But they also acknowledged how alone and unsupported their initial responses must have made me feel, since they now see how that one incident fits into the whole picture. They took responsibility for how their actions (although unintentional) affected me. Because that's just what you do. I would do and have done the same for them.

Have you read all of Bax's previous posts...?

Thank you so much, bunny.

Fiber, I must say I am distressed at your persistance that I am being uncharitable towards my wife. You admit that you don't know the while story, yet continue to defend her and minimize that which I have shared with you about my story. While I thank you for sharing your opinion, your intransigence in defending your original opinion in the face of new facts leads me to conclude you are no friend of mine. I wish you well in your own journey.

RockinBunny, I have not read all 390 posts, but I have read through the first 40 or so, so far. I see a lot of Bax's responses, thoughts, interpretations, perceptions and sometimes feelings, but I can't find any reference to the actual behaviors of the partner. Those are, apparently, listed in journal entries to which I am not privy.

All I'm saying is that, objectively, this incident looks pretty innocuous. Now I'm being told that I just don't understand, and judged as unfriendly, for not being able to reach the expected conclusion without being given anything more to go on.

And Bax, I have not said that you are uncharitable toward your wife. That is, in fact, a fine example of you judging according to what you think a person is thinking (your thoughts, not my intentions) instead of according to what they've said.

I won't be held responsible for what you merely think might be in my head, because it's not there.

Everyone:

Please remember that if there is a member that you find particularly triggering, use the "ignore" feature.

It save much upset, and allows us to focus on our journey of personal healing.

Love and blessings!

Dear fiberjunkie47,
I do not appreciate your messages. It is not your job nor the job of any member of this community to judge what constitutes abuse. As suggested by Ehope, there is an ignore feature, and I'm sad that I need to use it for the first time for my own sake. It's unfortunate because did appreciate your effort to teach a better way of communicating.

The reason why I'm responding today is because this discussion may help me learn about myself. I've learned that when sorting through my own feelings, it's important to finish three letter sentences. "I feel _____."

I feel content.
I feel upset.
I feel nervous.
Emotions are important. They tell us about the situation and they allow us to relate to other people. When we struggle to express our emotions, then don't you think it's reasonable to believe that other people might struggle to relate?

When I've dealt with a person who was terrible at apologizing, it was important me to focus on how I feel, rather than describe what I think is going on in her head. She had to claim ownership of her own actions, just as my emotions are the only thing that I can claim ownership of. I cannot control anyone and force them to make better decisions. The harsh reality is that we cannot force other people to apologize, especially if they don't mean it. The only thing I can do is build healthy boundaries and express myself, "I feel upset. I think that you are not claiming ownership of your own actions, and that thought is very upsetting to me. If you are willing I would like for you to acknowledge your actions if you are going to apologize to me at all. Without an acknowledgement of your poor behavior, I think that your apology is empty to me, and I'm not interested in hearing it from you. I will gave you the chance to think about your actions and I welcome for the opportunity for us to talk about it when you are ready. If you continue to treat me poorly I am walking away until you can treat me with respect and consideration."


The reason why I'm upset after reading this thread was because of my thoughts on the following sentence-
"What if what the person did was not intended to be hurtful and there is nothing to be responsible for? "

It. Does. Not. Matter.
Invalidation is actually considered a severe form of emotional abuse. When we dismiss how other people feel, we inform them through our actions that they are not important, how they feel doesn't matter, and that they shouldn't feel this way. Emotions aren't right or wrong, they simply are.

Thank you, aasfd - I keep forgetting that rule about invalidation. It seems so innocuous, but it really is one of the worst of the bunch, isn't it?

But she did validate his feelings. She validated them in the form of "I'm sorry that you feel." That is validation. What it is not is taking responsibility for making him feel.

I give up.