Well, I had your thought...followed by one that reminded me your wife has always non-apologised.

So even if you get an attempt at one at this face-to-face, it will still be an attempt and not a real one, by my reckoning.

Plus, you argued your case very well, and in my experience when an abusive person puts something off like that, it is because you are right and they know it! IOW, she refused to give you an answer straightaway because the best one she could come up with at that moment would not 'better' what she had already told you. The only way she could 'win' the argument (in her mind) was by walking away and refusing to answer. She has you in limbo, mulling over what she might have meant, which to them = winning, regardless of who was actually right or wrong in the discussion itself.

Narcissistic behaviour, I'm afraid... my husband would do that all the time.

I wouldn't hold out hope of a real apology :( xx

I have read a lot about Narcissistic Personality Disorder and it fits my husband to a T. ...but I am wary of labelling him as I feel it lets me off the hook in some way...so im trying to work on myself more rather than just put all his weirdness down to NPD

but I am trying to learn to trust my instincts more....they tell you everything you need to know.
Put your energy into you.

Sunnyjax - self care is a very good idea.

But you cannot reason with a narcissist. It is impossible to get them to do anything if they don't want what YOU want. Unless there is something in it for them, they rarely want to cooperate. And they will often change their mind about wanting something once they discover the other person wants it as well. This is why counselling doesn't work with them; they are not interested in a mutually beneficial solution.

They actually thrive on making you believe that you're the problem, not them. Believing that you can't ever let yourself off the hook may only be feeding his sense of entitlement. Holding yourself to ransom is what he wants you to do! He may think HE can just dump all of the blame on you too with no need to act guilty, because you've already shown him that you blame yourself.

For what it's worth, I was married to a narcissist who showed signs of being perfectly capable of killing me. My best solution was to get out. With narcissists, you either have to be willing to surrender every independent thought and deed, or save yourself and leave. There is no middle ground if they are really bad and not in treatment. I had ten years with the same guy, plus narcisistic parents - trust me, it is all about THEM.


Just saying... xx

Bax -----

Abusers don't apologize.

They don't own responsibility
because they don't believe
they've done anything that
requires one.

That's the feeling I'm getting
from your desription of the
interchanges. If you are
hoping for and waiting for
anything like a sincere
apology from an abuser,
your energy is being misplaced
and your time is being wasted.

Here's another "house" analogy:

If you own a house, you don't
sell the house when you need
to change a light bulb.

But if you've bought a house
and later find that the house
was built on a toxic waste
dump, you may not be able
to sell the house, but you
certainly will want to find
another place to reside.

I'm sorry to hear you are going through this. As others mentioned, getting a "responsibility" type of apology from anyone is difficult, and getting that from an abuser is impossible.

That said - I will echo what Ilene said - if you are expecting proper apologies in order to move forward or heal - your energy is in the wrong place. It sounds like you are expecting or waiting for something to happen that is very, very unlikely to happen. She will never "get it" in the way you wish her to get it - that's just her personality. And that stinks.

My happiness comes when I don't expect much from anyone. I don't expect thank yous, apologies, or "i'm sorrys". Sure, those are nice, but I realize they don't happen often enough. All I expect is people to treat me with respect for who I am at my core.

My opinion - you will be happier if you just accept her personality the way that it is, and then YOU choose how you want to interact with that personality. I don't mean agree with her personality - I mean accept it - accept that you can't change it or she is unlikely to change it. Then, next time she starts on something, it's much easier to say to yourself "that's the way she is" and just move past it. Expecting any kind of sincere apology out of her will exhaust you.

Admittedly, I don't know your whole story so I'm looking at this exchange out of context. That said, I can't see anything about her quote itself that is offensive or invalidating.

Yes, she is responsible for what she wrote, which is in itself pretty innocuous. No, she is not responsible for how you felt about it. Your feelings are yours. So, what is it she's supposed to take responsibility for?

Well, I've been real up-front with her about her attitude and abuse. She's constantly pushing for more reassurance, more promises that I'm focused on fixing the marriage. I originally responded to her quote 'and when there are cracks in the foundation, you don't put up new wallpaper.' It's all very subtle, I know. Leaves me feeling like I'm nit-picking a lot.

And I know this was a tiny exchange. I didn't put a lot of weight or expectation in it. But I wanted to be assertive and let her know that I felt that she was trying to make me feel guilty. So I expressed that. And she did nothing with it, same ad the big things I've expressed. Not horribly abusive or even worrying behavior, just... off. Validating my les kind thoughts about her.

Okay, but feelings are emotions, I feel sad, I feel angry, I feel hungry, I feel disappointed.

I feel that you....are doing this or doing that...is not an expression of feeling. It is an expression of judgement, where you are putting yourself inside her head and presuming to know what she wanted to 'make you feel'.

What changes if you change your script to "I feel (this) when you do (that) and I need/wish/hope (blank)"? Then it comes out something like "I felt guilty when you wrote that and I need...(what did you need there?)..." Then you own the feelings, which is appropriate, and she expresses sympathy that you had those feelings, which is healthy and supportive. And she doesn't have to be defensive because she's not being blamed for what you felt, or having her intentions defined by you.

There are other meanings to an abuser's apology.

I'm sorry I got caught.
I'm sorry, (I'm annoyed) that YOU are bringing this up (again).
I'm sorry you don't see things MY way.

According to Merriam Webster, sympathy is defined as follows:

the feeling that you care about and are sorry about someone else's trouble, grief, misfortune, etc.
a sympathetic feeling
a feeling of support for something
a state in which different people share the same interests, opinions, goals, etc.

This is the definition of empathy
the feeling that you understand and share another person's experiences and emotions : the ability to share someone else's feelings
the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also : the capacity for this

Both definitions are the exact opposite of what abusers feel/do.

Most abusers aren't capable of feeling empathy or truly extending sympathy for/to anyone but themselves. They are rarely if ever able to put themselves in the other person's shoes, so have no clue as to the meanings of the 'sympathetic' words they are saying. '

IMHO, Apologies are not about feeling sympathetic toward another person. They are about acknowledging and accepting responsibility for their actions and understanding what they did/said was hurtful, mean, etc.

Just my 2 cents.

What if what the person did was not intended to be hurtful and there is nothing to be responsible for?

Let me put it this way. I am 6'1" and weigh about 200 lbs. I am a physically strong woman. And I am assertive in how I speak. Not abusive, just assertive. I am not afraid to state my opinions clearly or strongly. A person might feel intimidated by me. Does that mean that it is my intention to be intimidating? Might it be that the person is inclined toward timidity to begin with and it has nothing to do with me? And, if that is the case, should I feel responsible for how that person feels?

Knowing my own intention, which is to be strong for myself and do no harm to others, the only apology I could offer if confronted with someone feeling intimidated by me would be a sympathetic apology, as in "I'm sorry you feel intimidated." What I could not offer, because I will not apologize when I have not done harm, would be an apology that takes responsibility for intimidating. I do not intimidate, not by my intention. So why would I take responsibility for someone else's feelings?

I have to agree with fiber here. She has stated it beautifully, especially about the difference between feelings and judgments. However, I will take a stab at this, too. You can't FEEL like she was judging you. That's not a feeling, it's a thought. I learned something in a class on marital communication that helped me understand the difference... If you can substitute the word "think" for "feel" in any sentence, then it is not a feeling. And if you need the word "like" it usually isn't a feeling, either.

I feel sad - I THINK sad doesn't make sense. This is a obviously feeling, and the action is on (and about) you.
I feel like my concerns don't matter - I think that my concerns don't matter. This is interchangeable, so it isn't a feeling. It also has the unspoken "to you" at the end (I feel like my concerns don't matter to you). Now you're assuming how SHE feels about you and reacting to that emotionally by feeling hurt (maybe?). That is the real feeling, but it is based on your perceptions and not what she actually did or said.

Again, like her, I don't have a context for what else may be happening in your marriage or situation. I just don't see why she should have to apologize for such a common saying. People do share that kind of thing all of the time, and it's general sentiment is a good one - if your marriage is important, you work on it. I'm sure that's something that you believe in strongly and can agree with, in general, since you are obviously seeking support in trying to work on things (despite there apparently being communication issues and possibly abuse).

You may have assumed that she meant something sinister by it or was attempting to guilt you. It is just as likely that she was referring to herself as the one who needs to put in more work. Maybe she was just expressing that you shouldn't give up on something that's important (like a home or marriage). Or maybe she didn't put all that much deep effort and thought behind it... Maybe she saw it and liked it and shared it - just one of those spur of the moment things. There may not have been any subliminal message at all.

What I see you trying to do is force an apology for something that you had an unintentional reaction to. You felt bad (or sad or hurt or guilty or whatever) when you read it because you perceived it as an attack. It's almost like you think she went looking for a quote that would make you look bad, spent time and effort crafting something intentionally hurtful, and then called her friends and family to get them to say that she's right and you're wrong. Maybe she did that, but if so why do you even care to reconcile?

If there's even a possibility that it's something else, why not take her word for it? If she says that she did not intend it to be an attack, then believe that she didn't. She expressed that she didn't mean to make you feel like your concerns don't matter, and also that she has sympathy and regret that you took it that way. If she really didn't intend to hurt you purposefully, then that seems completely acceptable. Trying to MAKE her apologize for liking that sentiment and sharing it in the first place comes off as manipulative and controlling to me.

I didn't demand an apology from her. I didn't expect one. I shared that the quote, when I read it, made me feel that my concerns were being minimized - I hope those more familiar with my story might see where that alarm went off. And then, in the interest of clarity, I pointed out that what she did say was not an apology. Which it was not. It was an expression of sympathy at best, coupled with a defense for why her action was not what I said it was.

An apology would have looked along the lines of 'I can see how that could make you feel minimized, and I'm so sorry I did something that made you feel that way.'

Again, I realize this is not a big deal. It's a simple facebook post. Not a lot of emotional weight invested in it. But my wife is utterly incapable of apologizing. She can't be wrong or feel guilt without it going straight to the 'I'm worthless/I do everything wrong/I'm a horrible person' mindset, which is very intense for her - which is one of the major reasons she turns to abusing me - deflect, deny, diminish.

I've often struggled with the 'can make/can't make you feel things' divide. On the one hand, I am responsioble for my actions and responses. On the other hand, a person very much can provoke a response - if you prick me, do I not bleed? If she calls me fat, it is theoretically possible for me to be secure in myself enough that I can dismiss or accept the insult without it having any emotional impact on me, but realistically, it's not possible. And in a marriage, it requires either such distance that I open myself to accusations of distancing, or such hyper-vigalance that I quickly become a nervous wreck.

She said something. I felt judged. I felt diminished. I felt guilty. Feelings, not thoughts. And I shared those feelings, as well as the fact that I would appreciate an apology. And she did not apologize, and when I pointed that out to her, she shared that she thought she had. She then went on to explain that she felt no need to, which is her right. And I left it there (Although she did later ask me to explain to her what I meant when I said that I expected respect, trust, honesty, equality, and communication in a relationship. "What is honesty? What do you mean by respect?")

I'm sorry, Bax but, if the exchange went as you described in your original post, you didn't express that you felt judged, diminished or guilty. You stated your thoughts about what you think was in her head, and what you thought she and her mother were doing to you. Those thoughts are not your feelings, but your judgement of others.

To be more clear, if I were to say I feel that my husband is a dickwad I think it would be clear that I am not expressing an emotion (I feel sad that my husband is a dickwad expresses an emotion). Instead I am stating my judgement or assessment of my husband.

There is a valid distinction between the two.

Bax,

after thinking about this some more, I wonder if your wife is using (or trying to use) a communication technique she learned from a therapist or self help book. In information I have read about dealing with people with BPD, they suggest using an "S.E.T." communication technique, and I think this technique or variants thereof are suggested for communication with all types of people who many be upset.

S stands for support, so first you make a statement that shows you support him/her. "I care about you" or "I want to understand you" or something that shows them the relationship is important.
E stands for empathize. You empathize that the other person is hurt or troubled, even though you may not agree with their reasoning or reactions. "I see that you are really hurt by what I said and understand how you could be hurt by that". This is meant to validate their feelings, NOT TO ADMIT FAULT OR APOLOGIZE. One should not feel they have to apologize for things they do not feel they did wrong.
T stands for truth. This is a statement where you explain the truth as you see it.

So all together, one may say "I care about you and this relationship and I want to work through this. I see my words have upset you, and I can understand how that happened. But, I was not intending on hurting you, I was only trying to express how I felt about ___."

Form the way you describe her "apologies" it sounds to me she is trying to validate your feelings of feeling hurt without admitting fault. It would certainly help you if she explained things further, because the way she said it could be interpreted as cold and a "brush off". But, I wonder if she went to her therapist and said that you complained about her not validating your feelings of hurt, and this is the technique that was taught to her.

For now, be thankful she isn't accusing you of being too sensitive or weak, because my guess is that is what she used to do when you told her you were hurt.

I must admit, I try using the above technique on my girlfriend, with mixed results because it takes tons of practice to make sure she does not feel like I am invalidating her feelings.

to clarify what I said - It seems to me like she is trying to apologize. And it seems to me like she is trying to understand why you are hurt or what you mean. If she wasn't, she would have had a defensive response, like "why should I apologize, if you are hurt that is your own problem, I did nothing wrong."

I certainly get what you are saying about her completely falling apart if she feels guilt. That's exactly what I deal with. It's either 0 or 100, and nothing in between. For example, during a huge argument the other day, I tried to explain I was hurt by something she said the day before - criticism of my eating. At first she said it was unfair of me to bring up something that happened the day before. And then she asked if I was so hurt, why did I wait a whole day to bring it up. And then she said she tried numerous times to politely tell me I am a messy eater. And later, as she finally started to understand that I was hurt, she started making comments like "if I am such a monster why do you stay with me?" For her, it's either that she is 100% justified, or she is a horrible person. And she views others the same way. They are either 100% good, or 100% bad.