very profound, indeed!
thank you for sharing that.

It was me who said I thought Bernie's husband may not be feeling appreciated. I said that not as an excuse either but as a reflection on what happened with my abusive ex, who also became defensive and said he felt unappreciated. However in our case he was right I was no longer appreciative of him at the time he said it because although he continued to take me out and pay, I had begun to feel intrepidation, walking on eggshells anticipating him to have some complaint, dissatisfaction or tantrum during our outings. I was no longer looking forward to going out with him and he accurately felt it. However that in no way excuses his meltdowns and multiple complaints. I agree that it would not have made a difference if I would have continued to tell him how thankful I was when we would go out because it would have done nothing to have changed his superior attitude and sense of entitlement to expect things to go his way and when they didn't he felt entitled to have destructive tantrums. He didn't seem to view the corporal punishment he received as a child with being abused. It was what was accepted at the time. I disagree. there is no doubt in my mind he was abused but again that is not an excuse for his choice to be abusive as an adult.
I've always said abusers can't be reraised, unfortunately. I do believe anyone can change if they are motivated and have a desire to do so. I believe abusers think what they are doing is working for them and when it doesn't they find someone new.

IleneW - hear, hear!

great piece of writing!!
thank you!

Nicely put Ilene.

Attack, to abusers, is always the best form of defence and (as you say) they are perpetually defending themselves against something that happened often many, many years earlier. And that's why nothing we do can ever be enough - because we can never change their past, and they can never deal with their past.

I totally agree that the fact that they were, in many cases (and certainly in my ex's case) themselves victims of abuse does NOT give them the right to "pay it forward" and abuse us. They are adults, they have choices and options. They choose not to face their demons, but rather to use their demons as an excuse to become our demons. And that is NOT acceptable.

Thanks for writing about this, Ilene.

My post was supposed to read...I was feeling trepidation.

I agree there is nothing we can do for them in regards to them feeling appreciated and to keep trying just keeps damaging our own self esteem. Our abusers had already judged us long before they met us as not being good enough or appreciative enough or as competent enough because in their mind they will always be superior to us.

Good post Ilene.

I've often wondered why my stbx continued the cycle of abuse instead of breaking it. His dad died when he was 15, so I never knew him. Those in town who knew him said he was an awful sob. I've even heard other family members say the same. Although I don't really know if it was verbal, emotional, physical, etc.

That being said, if you know your dad was a bad person, why wouldn't you want to behave differently and become a good example to your own children?

I guess that's a rhetorical question and each individual must answer that themselves. It just doesn't make any sense.

While I am rambling - here's one more thing - I longed for my stbx to answer questions I had about plenty of things. Instead I got the silent treatment.

One of the most valuable lessons I learned from the great people at this site it to let it go. He will never give me the answers I long for, so they don't matter anymore. His reasoning (or lack of logic) doesn't matter anymore - its way too hard to figure out. In letting go of all that baggage I have become a much better person. And isn't time for it to be all about me and the kids?

WOW Ilene,

I think that a response to this thread would be the basis for a new thread in itself.

In my own experience there are many things that victims of abusers often (not always) have in common with their abusers, for example:

1. Some form of abuse in childhood (as stated)

2. A tendency to try to push down, supress feelings

3. Guilt and shame issues

4. Low self esteem issues

5. Underlying feelings of anger and resentment

It is also true to say that while to a lesser extent, victims of abusers also can be subject to self delusion and even projection.

For example victims can find themselves deluding themselves over certain issues which makes it easier for them to get sucked into the abusers delusional world.

In the case of projection, abuse victims are also subject to projecting their own qualities of compassion, sensitivity and empathy onto their abusers.

Finally and slightly worryingly abuse victims are also capable of hurting others by behavior that they may not be conciously aware of. This fact is known by abusers and often used by them through half truths to try to manipulate the victims into thinking that they are abusers.

So what you may ask is the key difference between the abusers and their victims?


This is my response.

Abusers are capable of behavior which an objective outsider would clearly see as abusive, and not only single instances of this type of behavior but as part of an overall pattern of abuse.

All of us as children and sometimes even as adults have had the thought that we would like to "pay" somebody back for what was done to us, and often we have been tempted to consider a substitute target.

But in the end we stopped ourselves because we remembered how horrible being treated like this felt and knew we could never do this to another.

Abuser's on the other hand decided at some point in their lives that they would pay forward the abuse that was done to them. And every day which has passed since they made that decision has been about justifying or denying what they do, and the futher they go down this path, the harder it becomes to turn back.


So there you have it, a critical point in the lives of all of us that determines whether we become abusers or not. I think of this as being like some form of faustian pact with the devil, once the abuser selects the path of abuse it becomes almost impossible to ever face what they have become.

Thank you for sharing the knowledge. To my ex I did not kiss right, I did not hug right. Guess what? No matter what I did was never going to be good enough. Good ridance.

Thank you. That made so much sense to me. One of my biggest motivators for staying with my ex is that I was not going to be the next person to abandon him.

I thought I was being a good loving wife.

What I ended up with is heartache and pain and a man who believes I never did anything for him.

Carm wrote:

""""""To my ex I did not kiss right, I did not hug right. Guess what? No matter what I did was never going to be good enough."""""""


In my emotionally abusive marriage,
my then-H didn't like my laugh. He
said I cackled.

It's over now, but for lots of years since
the gavel came down on our divorce
decree, he had to send me alimony.

I presume he couldl hear me cackling
from 3 thousand miles across the
continent, when I stood at the bank
counter to deposit the check.

Good ridance, indeed!

Cackling now. Good for you, Ilene! :-)

omg Ilene!!!

you were cackling all the way to the bank..

haha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've given up trying to figure out what makes him tick..I think when I still felt some guilt, and responsibility for what was going on..

now, I just don't fucking care. I want to be as far away from him as I can.

He knew I was highly tuned
in regards to ESP. He said
I was scary.

(I AM.) :)