I liked what I heard during a discussion on CNN about it. Our employers have the right to invade our privacy to monitor our activity on the internet. I consider a spouse who suspects betrayal to be protecting their interests in terms of the legal contract of marriage when they do the same.

I also get upset when I see the victim of any kind of underhandedness on the part of a spouse, then be4coming further victimized by being turned into the wrong doer.

Cheating on a spouse, does a helluva lot more damage to a family, than reading someone's email.

But then, I had my email regularly read by my exS, and had nothing to hide. But when I read his, I had to pay and pay and pay.

This kind of stuff angers me.

I read this. I have my feelings about it. I strongly believe once you become man and wife that the two of you become one. While I do believe that you have a right to privacy in your own home, I DO NOT BELIEVE that abusing another person invokes that contract, but violates it. That being said, if you feel that the contract is broken in any way I think that its your right to find out if you are being violated or cheated on. I do not feel that this man did anything other than investigate what his intuitions were sensing. And yes, I read my x's emails because he was abusing me and I needed to know why he kicked it up a notch. It was there that I found the truth. Until then I never read his emails. But he had given me the password a long time ago.

Its sad, but in todays mentality of "its all about me and I want to feel good" others get hurt, and the only truth they can find is the ones that they investigate themselves. I do not feel like I violated him. I feel like I validated what I thought was going on. If he didn't want me to know then he should have left me, not keep me hanging on for another year with lies. Finding those emails freed me from years of abuse. It validated me! I would do it again should the need arise.

Just my thoughts.

I don't know the laws regarding email and I don't have an opinion as to whether the prosecutors have gone too far because I don't have enough facts to have an opinion. (an abuser always blames the victim.) The language used, "hacked into her email," does infer something illegal.

I've learned to not take things at face value. I've also learned that abusers always blame their actions on the victim.

Since I don't know what really happened, the only opinion I have is this: If the email was not a joint email account, then he crossed a line.

Regardless of the legalities, the way I see it is that's its never ok to blame or justify ones actions on another person. Each person needs to be responsible AND accountable for their own actions. And based on his reason give, that's exactly what this guy is doing.

As Dennis Miller always says, of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

oops, I meant to say this guy is justifying/blaming his actions on his wife.

If I hadnt have torn through my ex's emails the last 3 times that I did. I would never have known what he was doing behind my back.

While I believe that once your a couple there is a "no secrets" kind of understanding. That doesnt mean that you can or should just invade someones privacy as you wish. Being a couple should not mean giving up your entire privacy or your identity. BUT, when infidelity comes into play. I feel personally, all bets are off. The offending person has taken their privacy and abused it, to decieve their partner.

My ex is now walking around sharing the joy of Genital Herpes, and has just been diagnosed with Genital warts. Had I not looked and finally had enough of a man who thought it was clearly "OK" for him to do this...I might be standing next in line at the free clinic today.

My husband and I got in a fight about this last night.....well, it started with this subject but it was about something much deeper....I said the first thing that came to my mind and it all went to hell. I'm still pissed.

My first thought was, He's probably an overbearing, controlling jerk who won't allow his wife any privacy, because that's what I've been through.
And I said it out loud.
Husband said...that's the first place I always go. (It's true)

I said that probably the majority of women in America probably just thought the same exact thing that I just said. I decided to drop it but he didn't.
He stuck his head up his rear end and kept going.

From my experience, not being allowed to have any friends or much contact with family.



Not being allowed out of the house unless to go to work or food shopping.



Not being allowed to talk on the phone or write a card or letter without ABUSER reading it or listening in.



Being accused of cheating any time I looked or smiled at another person regardless of gender....



I base my opinion on my experience.



If he is an overbearing, controlling abuser, I hope he is prosecuted for opening her e-mail EVEN IF the charges are bogus.
(If she left her password for him to access her accounts it's not really "hacking".)



Hell, if he's an abuser like mine was, I wouldn't even blame her for seeking intimacy outside of the marriage. How long can a tender person tolerate living in the darkness of abuse without seeking the basic need for human touch?


I would never advise cheating on an abusive spouse. Very Dangerous!

On The Other Hand,

Maybe he's not abusive. Maybe SHE is and he's sick of trying to find a good reason to leave.

I would have never found out about my ex's fondness for teenage boys had I not been snooping on his computer.

It's impossible for me to make a judgment call on this given the lack of information.

Legally...if he didn't hack he shouldn't be prosecuted for hacking.

Unless, of course, it means escape for an abused woman.....

This is a tough one, alright.
I think that we've had these relationships that create such mistrust, deception, and a bit of paranoia, and these toxic abusers -- purposely create the havoc in our minds.

It's part of the whole gaslighting thing, always questioning if we have reason to worry, or are just being overly-sensitive? That we *should* trust our partners, but then they make an off comment or that might mean something?? I trusted - totally, for a very long time, until we broke, and he was trying to lure me back (again). Things just didn't add up.

So, it's no wonder turn into slueths of sorts with the peeking, snooping, questioning. Would we be this way in a normal, healthy relationship? In my opinion, doubtful.
Our relationships aren't normal, so our reactions may not be either? I know mine were not.

I have to agree with Tame & ladyrowen, there was some evidence that confirmed some suspicions for me, mind you...something very easy to uncover.
He portrayed this upstanding, model boyfriend, yet other things proved otherwise. This helped me no longer believe his WORDS, but see who he really was, and kept me away.

Hopefully, one day I can trust enough where this would never even cross my mind.

What if the man was a jealous, controlling
abuser who had no real reason to distrust
his wife, but simply wanted to control who
she was communicating with?

If both partners have nothing to hide, they should not have to "break" into each other's mail...they should have open access..

This topic really does have a different answer for many.

I really love your answer fragmentednumb. It is so loving and beautiful. This is what I dream of. However, many relationships are not as open, sharing, and loving as to offer the very best solution of "nothing to hide, open access." Wonderfully uncomplicated.

Also, there is a "personal space" that some people just need to feel independent and able to explore: personal interests, curiosities, etc., that they feel a need not to share for whatever reason. It is complicated.

Sadly, many spouses today use the Internet for cheating either virtually or setting up physical meetings and communication with another person for sexual purposes. This is a fact.

The better option really would be not to do this or leave the relationship but most do not or not always right away before they obtain another relationship. It can be complicated.

I went through this from both sides of the coin. I was really messed up. First one of my ex's did this to me for years. About the 3rd year in I hacked his email and found multiple ads for sexual partners and some females he had already established sexual relationships with. Extremely traumatizing and yet allowed me to confront him with what I already suspected for a long time and then leave the relationship.

Then, after leaving him and eventually getting involved with another man emotionally, who didn't seem to want to commit, I ended the relationship and met another man. Then soon after (3 mos.) we hooked up because he seemed so nice and said he wanted a totally committed and real relationship, I moved in with him. Turned out he was extremely verbally abusive to me and I emailed the man who didn't seem to want to commit to communicate this and ask for help. We did indeed arrange to get together and try out a real relationship, he said he loved me and was horrified by the situation I had gotten myself into and would definitely help me get out of there and commit to us living together and eventually get married. By the way, it did not work out, he really did not want a full committed relationship. However, I felt trapped with the verbally abusive man and this noncommittal man helped me to get out of there through email and phone contact as he was in another city. The abusive man then hacked my email and screamed bloody murder that I had planned to leave him instead of just saying that I wanted this to him. Well, I was afraid of him, he was extremely verbally abusive, yelling, insulting, ranting for hours over any stupid, unimportant little thing he felt hypersensitive about. It's complicated.

Somewhere, beyond right and wrong, there lies an answer. We are imperfect beings and do imperfect things. It did not feel good to hack a partner's email to get the proof I thought I needed to confront and leave or to have mine hacked by an abusive partner but that is just what happened. I'm working on learning to make better choices in life.

Wishing everyone a most wonderful and insightful New Year, with love and hugs. :)

The thing is, what really matters most in this case may be motivation, not the act itself. But the legal system is not equipped to work on those grounds. Not very well, anyhow. It is a gray area, not black-or-white, and the legal system is geared more toward b/w, regardless of attempts to address the gray areas.

Hacking with intent to harm is not at all the same as hacking with intent to preserve one's life, health, or safety, or to gain evidence of injustice. But establishing intent is very tricky. There ought not to be a b/w law, but conditional ones. Law is still never perfect.

One final thought, which doesn't really resolve much, but is something to help think about the matter at hand: sometimes the ends justify the means, sometimes the ends condemn the means. Which is kind of the intent argument, backwards.

A related question that would need to be answered is when, if ever, does one forfeit the right to privacy? And to what extent?

Anyhow, enough academic thought. I accessed the email accounts of both my exes. Discovered both cheating this way. They had given me their passwords, but had I "hacked" the accounts, I'd not feel one bit bad about it. I kinda feel they forfeited their rights to privacy in their personal (non-work) communications when they began deceiving me in the relationship. I believe I have the right to truth in a relationship of that nature, and I will take whatever measures I can to secure it that do not foreseeably, directly cause undo harm to others, in a case of reasonable suspicion of deceit or other wrongdoing that is not insignificant or rather minor.

All I can say is that my X always, always had my password and had every right to read my emails if he wanted to. I had nothing to hide so it did not matter. He had this up until the day that I caught him cheating. That was the respect that I gave him in the relationship. I never got that from him. It is a slippery slope when it comes to marriage and being married. The goverment rarely gets involved in marital matters unless it is open abuse that can be seen. I do not think this guy will serve any time at all.

Great topic Ilene. Good of you to post it here.

You're welcome, Tame.

justdasi posed:

when, if ever, does one forfeit the right to privacy? And to what extent?

So ---- what does relationship require of us?
What does marriage require?

Does it requre us to be totally without boundaries at all times,
because we committed our love and life to someone?

Does that mean we can have no private spaces/places?

Does that then mean, that we must be always "accessible"
to sex demanded by the one to whom we've committed
our love/life?

What does trust mean, within relationship?

What does transperancy mean, within relationship?

What do boundaries mean, within relationship?

What does respect mean, within relationship?

What does violation mean, within relationship?


In my own life, I would find U.S.P.S. mail that
I'd been expecting and waiting for ----- on the
bottom of a pile at the back of a closet, six
months after it was supposed to arrive. It
hadn't been opened, but someone in my
house (I ony had one housemate, my
husband), helped it find its way into any
place I couldn't benefit from it, when I
needed it. This was a pattern throughout
that marriage, and included many things,
anything of value to me, going missing,
including gifts others had given me and
momentos that held sentimental value
to me. . . . and the "accidental" breaking
of anything he knew would cause me to
feel a sense of loss.

Passwords? Emails? Boundaries?

In the case of the Michigan man, we only
know that he says he thought his wife was
cheating. What if she never really was
cheating? What if she had been emotionally
abused for years and years, and had reached
out for friendship? What if she was just trying
to survive emotionally, and the friendship had
slid into intimacy. Yes ---- all of these questions
fall somewhere on a spectrum that may be
closer to black or white, or just plain totally
gray.

Should a relationship be full of honesty, trust
and absolute respect, on the part of both partners?

Ya think??????

Is that the experience of most of us here on this board?

Probably not.

My opinion is:

That if mail arriving via postal delivery
is protected by federal law, then
mail arriving electronically needs
some legal protection as well.

HOWEVER ----

in a marriage wherein the fundamental
contract has been broken by acts of
abuse . . . . . . . and the injured party
is doing reconnaissance. . . . that
now falls into a category of broken
contracts.

I didn't say I had all the best answers.
All I have is my experience and opinions.

got it

There are plenty of things in my value system I can uphold during the worst of times with a partner who has betrayed me. Respecting their privacy when they haven't given me basic human respect in general, is one of those values I am, I was, willing to forfeit just so I could feel I was dealing with some truth in making decisions. Otherwise who knows how long I would have continued believing lies.

One thing I learned with my exS is, those kinds of people RELY on us having morals, values, principles and things like generousity, giving the benefit of the doubt, second chances, etc etc

If I found myself with another pathological person, I know better now to get out before I compromise any of my values. Back then, I did the best I could do with limited knowledge.

In this couple's case:
"Thirty-three-year-old Leon Walker was charged with a felony after he accessed his wife Clara Walker's account and learned she was having an affair, the Detroit Free Press reported.

When he saw that his wife was communicating with her second husband who had previously been arrested for beating her in front of her son, Leon Walker turned the emails over to Clara Walker's first husband and the child's father.

That's when Leon Walker was charged with hacking"

That's a tough one these days. I really don't know. His hacking is/was definitely a boundary violation... privacy, etc. but it happens ALL the time. And not with just pc's but with phones as well.

In this new environment of technology, I think the courts are in brand new territory. Given that these people were married, and given that the pc might have been mutual property.... geesh, I just don't no. Being married carries certain privileges that other people are not otherwise afforded. So, that's a hard call.

As far as regular mail, again, being married carries with it certain privileges that otherwise wouldn't apply to non-married people. It is a felony to tamper with US mail, and one could face jail time for sure. But, again, does it really apply to people who are married?

That's a good one. I truly have no idea, other than, it sucks for the wife. I think it speaks to the relationship more than something that would be a legal issue.