The behavior of the "watch him like a hawk" family probably comes down to denial (at best), ignorance (worse), or because the child has learned this behavior from others in the family and they are concerned about the truth coming out (worst of all). You have no control over them, and will get more satisfaction if you turn your efforts elsewhere.

Why has the pastor been looking for reasons to shut down the group? Does he suspect -- or, worse, know -- about this abuse? If so, he's trying to protect the church from liability.

It is probably a good idea for you to tell the leader, because it would be best for him if he disbanded the group. If the pastor decides to disband it, it might implicate the leader. At this point, it sounds as if that group is really a hornet's nest, unfit for children, so shutting it down is a good idea. Maybe you can start up your own private group with kids you invite, but in the long run, a group is less important than these children's safety.

By the way, I never did address the issue of your son's cancer -- a whole different nightmare. You are wearing down that "moving forward" path, mama. Your children have a great example in you.

Naive1, I have to stand up for this precious children's group. It is perfectly safe as long as this monster family isn't at it and it's one place for homeschoolers I have control over to make safe (because I established the connection with the leader early on but don't know the leaders of the other groups this family attends.) The pastor is above reproach and simply wanted to shut down the group because it's not affiliated with their actual Church and he's trying to build their youth program which meets another night. Having kids attend our beloved program takes away from his weekly program, that's all. Trust me when I say I know all about corrupt youth group leaders because I grew up in a church where 4 leaders in 2 years committed sexual sins, some criminally punished, and our "pastor"...he had been a convicted criminal of fraud, was released and hired by our church, put on a GREAT show of repentance and entertaining sermons, but ultimately ended up back in prison due to laundering money through that church. So yeah, this church is good otherwise we wouldn't have been participating in its functions for the past 9 years. :)

Thanks for your input about talking to the leader. My oldest comes back to our state next week for his quarterly scans and we hope every time that there's no cancer because that would really throw a monkey wrench into our overwhelming lives! ;)

Thanks for the explanations. I forgot this was social, for homeschooled kids. The leader is the one to address the parents, for sure. Is there any legal reason they can still show up? Is it legal to keep them out?

Keep us posted on those scans.

Glad you've found a pastor you respect!

Do what is best for your family and yes there will be losses that affect you and your kids and yes it isn't fair at all. I am a homeschooling mom as well and I understand how important regular group connections are. Its worth pursuing but I have found that perps have more rights than victims if they don't end up in jail and people even in churches have a difficult time with church discipline in such matters and would rather avoid doing anything for fear of repercussions. I would suspect in most groups there are perps the important thing to focus on is reducing risk because elliminating it isn't feasable. So make sure when you join a group you understand their policies and practices make it safe for children and that you trust they are following thru on them ... That normal background checks are done (but not relied upon soley). Then educate your children to tell, have regular check ins to make sure safety rules are being followed. This can be within the family and by others outside.

Arm yourself with knowledge. And as I was told keep your children away from the perp. It is not healthy for victims to have to interact with those that caused harm and is counter productive to healing. Of that means you withdraw than you withdraw the group is not if greater importance than your child. As for those that know it is their responsibility to act or not act in that information it isn't in your control of they stay or go. They need to do the best for them. Don't add unnecessary stress on yourself or drama. It isn't worth it. Let others be responsible for themselves.

Sorry you are going through this but in the end God is in control and what may seem like a huge disappointment might lead to a greater opportunity that God already has lined up for your family. Keep it in,perspective I firmly believe God will redeem our situation in His time and His way.

Hugs.

Get the heck out of there. Stay away from that stupid ignorant group. Why would you even care to send your child to a place that embraces sex abusers with such little regard for the safety of others?
Do you understand what I'm saying?
Why would you want to send your children to a place that has such tremendous lack of insight and carelessness for keeping kids safe?
I say that and I'm now a mom to a child with sexual behavior problems.
If my son touched another child I would be HORRIFIED! I care to be responsible wherever I send my son because his acting out sexually also hurts him! And I care to save him from the shame he would create for himself too.
You have to look at this sex abuse matter in a new light.
Watching how people respond to the information totally lifts the veil of deception. You KNOW who your friends and enemies are. Those who dismiss and disregard are NOT your friends. Those who support and care are. We would pay big bucks to see through people in a way this tragedy permits.
It's not all losses. There are gains in this.

I am with 96, I would run out of there, heck I would start a new group in my home if needed. To say that the child can stay because the abuse did not happen there is ignorant.It does not matter WHERE it happened just that it happened. You must now err on the side of caution,even if it makes you look like the crazy overprotective mom.There are many places where you can start a new group with safe children and adults who do not poo poo away their children's crimes.If something happens to another child(even if it is not there which it wont be because he knows he is being watched) you will never forgive yourself.I have told the police that my daughter's abuser is a Jr leader in his boy scout troop and if something happens it is on the authorities not me. Please get your kids out of that group.

I feel I need to clarify a few things.

First of all, we have not gone to this kids group since it restarted in September. Our intentions had been to try to go back to it but because the other family refused to leave even though their monster child wasn't going, my husband and I felt more comfortable just keeping our kids home. So please don't worry. I am not an ignorant fool who would put my children in the line of fire.

As for the leadership in the group itself, due to the fact that we were in an open investigation, I actually have not shared with the leader the details of the reason that we were going through the investigation. I have not shared with him that it was a sexual abuse situation. All he knew was that we were going through a police investigation which involved this monster child having done something to one of my children. The monster child's mother was the one who told him it was my daughter. In reality it was three of my children. Anyways, he has been extremely supportive of our family through this whole process even not knowing almost any information. I plan on updating him with a few more details sometime this week. I do believe you will make the right decision in asking this family to remove their monster child from the group.

To be totally honest, my husband and I have just now reached a point where we feel confident and collected in sharing a little bit more about our situation. For the past 8 months we've done a lot of dancing around the subject, being elusive to others that ask what's going on, and simply just not sharing with others. We are now at a point where we understand that doing this type of communication is not as helpful to our situation as we thought it would be. My husband's main concern has been having the wrong person find out and then our children being revictimized because of that. He is also very concerned about the stigma attached to sexual abuse. Luckily, so far, most of our friends have not had a problem in accepting my children at face value and allowing their kids to play with them.

My main concern for this group is the fact that I feel like to a certain extent it is my responsibility to protect the other people that go to it. I have started sharing our story with the people that I know who do attend. At least that way they can be well informed of the situation and make their own decision for themselves if the leader does not decide to remove this child from the group. You see even though we don't attend this group , technically this group meets at my mother's Church. One of the things that my husband and I have on our plans for this week is to have a sit-down meeting with the leader of this group as well as the pastor of this church so that they are aware of the situation even though we cannot legally prove what we're saying. I gotta tell you, our detective tried to persuade me from doing this. That is why I have waited as long as I have! Only yesterday did I get a phone call from a retired SVU Detective that is a friend of my friend and she instilled the confidence I needed to be able to share with others without the fear of slandering this family. She said as long as I do not have an open investigation, My First Amendment right is protected and I can share with whoever I want to with the emphasis on people I know. So here we are, moving into a very new chapter of the story. We are going to become a little more vulnerable and transparent to others in hopes that this will save other children from the pain that my children had to endure.

And for your information, in my children's disclosures to the police, they stated clearly the things that happened to them in this Children's Group. So if this child reoffends, the onus is on them.

We already planned on joining a different Children's Group and hopefully taking with us some of the friends that are still stuck in this Twisted scenario.

I think it sounds like a great idea to join another group and hopefully the friends you have that know your situation would go with you. Not just for the safety of their own children, but so that your children can keep those friends who are positive influences. We moved after our daughter's disclosure because I didn't want to keep running into perp and his family and was worried about the future what ifs. It was hard on her to lose the friends she had because she already had lost so much. At this point, it sounds like several people in that group know about the abuse. I don't understand why anyone would want to continue being around that family, especially if they aren't even doing anything besides "watching like a hawk". I really wonder where this abuse started because from things you have posted, it sounds like very severe and disturbing things have gone on. It really makes me wonder if there is an adult linked to your families who has been involved with this. There are just so many children involved here, the offenses so scary with weapons being involved and that is a lot of secrets being kept. I just can't wrap my mind around how a case like yours can be closed!

Two words: reasonable doubt.

thay group already knows enough to say no
Other parents even know enough to prompt this group to say no to this kid - U said they're raising concerns.
As far as details go - I vasilate myself between my children's confidentiality and knowing silence is a perpetrators best friend.

That's been my struggle. Reminding myself that this is not my story to tell versus sharing enough to express the gravity of the situation. The sentence I've come to rest upon that is vague and yet explanatory is "members of our family were physically, verbally and sexually abused by another child." Depending on the person I'm sharing with I might tell more details including the name of the perpetrator. (I leave my son out of it unless they ask directly and then I share according to our relationship. )

As for the leader of the kids group, he really knows nothing. I simply told him we were going through a police investigation with the other family. Monster's mom told him it was something her son did to my daughter. He also has no context because I never shared. I even asked him not to share with anyone else and my friend who works there doesn't name the child nor did I give her permission to share. Plus it was Easter break and our case just closed so monster boy has only been 2x and the 1st time we thought was going to be the only time because he came to help his sister fulfill a "bring a friend" section. And in his defense, he's a "green" leader in that he took over from the one who left just a couple years ago so that the group wouldn't shut down. He has no experience nor understanding of sexual abuse so he wouldn't jump to that with a matter between children. And I know this guy...he wants to do the right thing and this is his 1st serious issue to deal with. I'm confident that he'll follow through on our agreement of keeping the kid away once I share more with him at our meeting. The other parents (except my one friend sworn to silence) have only just been told this past week so they couldn't have done anything until this next meeting anyways. ;)

I'm not even sure if people care anymore about this particular situation BUT I'm going to update it none-the-less.

Today my husband and I had our sit down conversation with the leader of the children's group. I started by asking him to share what he already knew. Boy, I was not emotionally prepared to hear THAT!

(Remember, the perpetrator's mom was my best friend/surrogate mom for 8 years. I really THOUGHT she was a moral person, Christian, truthful, etc. But every time another part of this story comes out, I continue to question what in the world our relationship really WAS?! Did she really pull the wool over my eyes that well?! I know she knows more about her children's issues than she told the detective/CPS. I know that my kids AND her kids had all disclosed to her and she's never shared what she was told to the authorities NOR to me, EVER. I know that she knows that this legal battle has been fought with honor on my end and I haven't called her out on her possible neglect as the reason my kids were all continually abused at her home. But this most recent chess move is just BEYOND my imagination!)

So, the leader told me that all the parents had told him was that my daughter and their son had done something inappropriate. They shared that they had undergone investigations from both CPS & the police. And get this...my "friend" shared that her son was found "innocent" and that they "didn't find anything."
The leader had told them it was o.k. for their son to come back (remember, at this point he had no other knowledge other than above and what we shared which was we were undergoing a police investigation) because 1) it had not happened on church property and 2) he had no parents coming to him and saying this kid had acted inappropriately. We did both agree that this family's children tend to lean towards disrespectful behavior naturally but that this was not enough for him to say he couldn't come back.

Well, now he has the FULL story. We made it clear...our only interest is to protect the church. We are not going to sue, even though we could have, just like we chose to not bring a civil lawsuit on the perp's family. We are not trying to stir up problems but we felt the truth needed to be told so the church could make an educated choice of what they wanted to do. We don't even WANT to know what they decide because after we tell them, our part is done. It's a he said, she said problem with no legal proof so they have to make the best decision with what they know.

First we explained, YES, this kid IS guilty, that the police believed our story, but that there was not enough evidence to move ahead legally to convict him plus he's only 10 and the system is not set up for that. We shared, yes, it happened on the church grounds and even during a time that the group met. We shared that at the church it was both physical and sexual assault to at least 2 of our children and possibly a third child unrelated to our family. We told him that I had seen with my own eyes my younger child being touched inappropriately by this kid at my house. That my older son was so afraid of the church that it had taken 6 months just to get him to come out of the car and step on the property! That my daughter had scars on her body due to the abuse. That 3, not 1, of my children had been physically, verbally & sexually abused. That it had taken place randomly whenever his fancy hit in opportunistic moments, even under our noses, over the past 4-5 years. That we believe the sister not only witnessed some but might have been a party to draw victims in. (We didn't share she herself was a victim, based on our kid's stories, as that is not our place.) We also shared it had happened to at least one other child on church grounds according to our children & that our children had witnessed it happening to each other sometimes on church grounds. I gave him a print out about youth sexual predators --> https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/227763.pdf <-- by the U.S. department of Justice and pointed out that kid perp's are more likely to offend again and also in a group/school setting.

He said that it is no longer his decision but he has to talk with the pastor and youth leader and they will make a collective decision. We will be meeting with the pastor next week and sharing a bit more about the times it happened at his church just so he's well informed. No, we can't have physical proof for something that happened 3 years ago (at the church) but if the way my children have reacted isn't physical proof enough, I don't know what is?!

He did validate that even though this is coming from the same family, it is pretty amazing that 3 of our children would have similar stories, telling us of their own accord, privately sharing, if it didn't hold some truth. He pointed out the kid dynamics/friendships and how the little sister HAD to know something because she was ALWAYS with my daughter (YUP! She knows but hasn't told!) He also really felt compassion for my older boy because he knows he's different and he said he must be struggling to process all this because he's different; we confirmed that. Lastly, I pointed out that him having known our family and theirs and how well we always got along, loving on each other, that for us to completely cut ties for all parties (my oldest son and his best friend, me and my best friend, my daughter and her little friend, and my husband's mentorship of their oldest son as well as leaving this kid's group) it must be pretty bad. He also thanked us for sharing so much more because he said "the other parents really were trying to be evasive over what happened and didn't give me much information to go off of." We also shared that the other family this might have happened to needs to not be mentioned nor talked to (we didn't give names) so that the investigation can be above reproach. Well, now the truth is out there! We talked about how we just want this family to stop being in denial and get help for their children! They will have to face the truth because he plans on having another sit down with them soon.

"Innocent"..."didn't find anything"...SERIOUSLY??!!! I'm grieving this friendship all over again but for different reasons. This woman is a straight up liar! It HURTS me that she'd even lean towards making my daughter out to be a liar by saying her child was "innocent!" This was SUCH a difficult conversation to have BUT I'm so glad we had it. Chess...make a move ahead of your opponent. DONE! Maybe the embarrassment will cause them to leave anyways or the uncomfortableness of having to discuss the REALITY of the situation! I'm SURE they were banking on our silence...surprise! We're stronger than that! We fight our battles instead of cowering behind lies! I've shared the truth about MY son with a few of my friends...FACE THE TRUTH ALREADY PEOPLE!!! The leader himself said, "I'm afraid of what's going to happen as he gets older and puberty hits if his parents don't do something...he could become a real monster!" I looked at him and said "uh-huh...but he already has gotten worse and IS a monster." Again, all of this would never have come to light had I not overheard that ONE conversation that was a few seconds long at just the right time, in just the right place...my kids would still be victims. NEVER again!

Thanks for letting me vent. Sorry about all the emotions in this one... :

No apologies for emotions! Feelings are one way we know something is seriously wrong (or right), and this discussion clearly gave you a LOT to go on.

Good for you for speaking up, and good for you for sticking only to your own family's story. Sounds as if you could not have handled this more discreetly.

I'm sorry about the crumbling of your old friendship. Fear, shame, and denial can be more powerful than a desire for individual friendships. Sounds as if she has good reason for the fear. Shame is only hers if she believes her son is a monster-in-the-making, and does nothing about it. Denial -- well, you said you thought she was a good, Christian woman, and it's likely that this public perception is very important to her. It is very difficult to come to grips with the realization that a child is in serious trouble. So a little sympathy is still warranted. But you know the truth, and you have done ethically what you needed to do to protect a place for your own children.

Naive1,

It's no longer for my children...my husband has already decided we will move on...but it is for the sake of the church not being hit with a future lawsuit or other children being destroyed by the monster child that we had this conversation.

I have NO sympathy for this family anymore because they have shown that the truth is NOT important but that keeping their life NORMAL is. For all 6 of them to lie enough to make it through this investigation AND Cps interviews, that's beyond comprehension! The deception has gone too far when you call your child innocent to another party which makes my children look like liars AND SHE WAS DISCLOSED TO BY THEM!!! It's just wrong on SO many levels. I almost want to show up tonight to again make them feel uncomfortable because I don't have to talk to them nor have I been the one abused and I do need to give a body safety book to one of my friends who goes there.

I'll see how brave I feel later. ;o)