short answer? Probably not. Most often not. And I'm fairly qualified to have this opinion

i wasn't a very good parent. In part cos i got a chronic fatigue type illness when my youngest was about 6 months old. It ate my life. In part cos my partner and I made the kids part of the battleground as our relationship failed. I don't know now how we could have been so stupid and so selfish. In part cos i simply wasn't a very nice person at that time. I regret much of that part of my life

and I think judgments are OK if they're based on ethics but Not when based on morality

i think it depends if the parent is intending to be harmful or just lacking skills and knowledge, including self insight....

i came from a family that didn't know how to be a family...my family skills are terrible because i learned from bad examples...my own father was neglected so it's no wonder he couldn't set a good example

sometimes parents hurt their kids because they themselves have been hurt..this is not an excuse but just the reality of humans tending to repeat behaviors that are familiar

I think I should qualify my previous response.
I meant that at the time of being a bad parent, they most likely aren't being a good person. But that doesn't mean they weren't a good person prior to the time they weren't being a good parent. Nor does it mean that they can't be a good person after they stop being a bad parent. Most of us have times when we don't cope well and make poor life choices - these can impact on our ability to effectively parent.
BUT ....
i was responding as a non-multiple. And I should have thought that through a little better. You multiples can all be wonderful people, and I think you pretty much are - but you can be seen as a bad parent by others for many reasons. You can lose time and miss things, you can get triggered by things, you might be Little when your kids need adult help with school work etc - lots of things. This may make you appear to be a bad parent to a non-multiple world, but you aren't. Not in the same way i was a bad parent when a was a not so nice person.

Good points.
My struggle isn't with my parenting.
I don't have kids. I think in my twenties I wanted to settle down and have kids but I was afraid I would be abusive. I was afraid I would be a bad parent so I didn't want to make babies.
My question is strictly coming from my ego.

My mother is a narcissist. She admits easily that she was too proud to seek help from others when she was married to my dad and we were all living in danger. She admits a number of times to being willing to put her child/ren in harms way if it meant something better for her.
But she is a church going lady, so she has all these people over the years that see her as this lovely, godly woman who is so kind. She prays for people, with people, etc.

So I struggle.
Because she is kind and loving to strangers, because it doesn't cost her anything. But she WONT take care of her family - even if she can - because it causes her inconvenience.

So she seems to be a good person, but a bad parent. But then I struggle with that, because we are ALL mixes of good and bad, giving and selfish. So the terms good and bad do a disservice.

I guess I just think, it pisses me off that there are so many people that would think she is kind hen in reality she is kind of a self indulging robot

then I think your mother falls into the category covered in my first response - bad parent / bad person. Sorry. But I'll admit to a bias. Godly people, that pray for / with others? They can indeed be very good people, but so many of them aren't that as a group - I assume they are bastards and they have to prove they aren't before I'll accept them as being worthy to share my life

I love you K2 :)

me and you KT - seems like we have a similar allergic response to sanctimony?
:)

Hahaha

Well think of it this way -- can a person be "good" in one area and "bad" in another -- yes I do think so. They may not have their priorities right. Long term neglect of your children cause long if not life long problems can they still be a good person - yes but they did also cause major damage.

I have always heard that "the first thing to come into your mind, is how you're raised, what actions you take are who you are." I dont feel either of those things, truly, correlate to one another. We are conditioned through our childhood on how to think, and how to react to the world around us, and those lessons are tempered by our family's perspectives on the world.

No one is inherently racist, violent, or otherwise dysfunctional. We get there by the environment and ideologies we are raised in. It's only when we are away from that home/family influence that we can see things differently, and hopefully objectively as well, enough to correct any deviation...growing up.

However, to more directly address the topic, being a "good person" does not mean someone will also be a "good parent". Both of those ideas are strictly perspective. I truly believe you can be a good parent at home and a "bad person" in the world, vice versa, neither or both. As for religion, in my opinion, it can influence both. I've found, through my experience that all of them can create issues in a family environment, but strict codes and expectations in monotheism are some of the worst offenders. I had a mother that tried at the church life, it provided her a sense of superiority, and a vessel through which she could justify judging others with a sense of superiority.

For the most part that is all that sanctimony really is, justification without the burden of truth, that you are better than someone else because your sins are forgiven/accepted/etc. I've been told I "have the devil in me" most of my life, and was treated accordingly. I had a roof over my head, food on the table, and an education. I also wasnt allowed out, away from a school or church setting until I was 18, I would be regularly beaten as "punishment", and I was viewed as an unforgivable sinner. In that example, my being provided for properly could be construed as points for good parenting. Getting in a fight at school and being "baptised/saved" be being held under water until unconscious would suggest otherwise, unless you believe the devil actually made me do it.

Inevitably it all comes down to perspective. Now that having been said, I have no blood related children. I have a pittbull/cocker spaniel mix, that is my "son", and that's all I'll ever have. I recognize "the devil in me", and he was made, not born. But that devil also works non-profit and raises money for charities, teaches the community how to defend itself and gives back, using the violence that made him as a way to prevent others from the same thing. I like to believe it makes me a good person, but I know it is what would not make me a good parent.

Hi KittyT,
I wish that you didn't have to deal with all of that growing up. I can relate.

I'm not a clinician but I've learned a lot during decades of healing work.

There are many similarities between clinical narcissists and sociopaths. Both have zero empathy or compassion for any creature, human or animal.

They almost always have completely fake public personas of being "good/kind/helpful" people. It is about manipulating (controlling) others to get what they want.

There is nothing authentic about it. People are a means to an end for them.

Narcissists feed off of other people's mistaken affirmation of their erroneous, grandiose view of themselves. They NEED people to see them as magnificent and tend to attack anyone who starts to see through the deception.

As soon as it is apparent that someone will no longer feed their ego they often move on but not without crushing the person they leave behind.

I grew up with a combination of both in my "family". People are like chess pieces to them.

If my father was kind and helpful to anyone... Just run.

He would "help" people into a place where they were somehow dependent on him and then he would use them for all he could get out of them.

They never see anything wrong with them. It is always other people if they bother to examin situations or behavior at all.

I haven't been part of this site for very long... Your kindness and empathy are already apparent to me. You are amazing for having survived that and for choosing to be who you are.

Thank you. You prove that people can choose a different path no matter where their lives began.

I am the only person out of a large family to choose a different life. The rest of them are still very, very sick and happy to stay there. You help me feel less alone.

I would agree with much of Dahrien's comments and would add that the concept of 'good/evil' are in themselves constructs of social programming. The labels over simplify and distort truth. The consequences of our actions reveal more accurately what is healthy not what is good or evil. Nature teaches us health, not goodness...but the burden is on us humans to learn from the consequences and learn what health means.
Spare the rod spoil the child was a moral teaching not a natural one. The consequences reveal unhealthy children...but humans didn't learn about PTSD until relatively recently in history...so we are at a disadvantage having to learn very slowly what nature has been trying to teach us all along.
Sadly, many cultures compete , rather than cooperate, with nature...we make enemies with our best friend...and we are paying the consequences.

Yeah it's easy to smile wave to strangers and help an old lady across the street

But what are you like when your deeply involved!!!???

If your causing harm and the other person is correct in their judgement of abuse

Then no you are not a good v person

You will remain a bad person til you stop the abuse

And despite no longer abusing, those previously harmed have a right to still think of you as a bad person

amends for many years to such person's is often required to heal such perceptions of you and may never result in forgiveness nor trust

But if you are a good person of God you will go to such lengths to heal your family

If we are judging family as bad, that is our mind informing us to leave those relationships

A judgement to protect you!

Listen!!

Trying to change abusive family is hard painful crazy making work

Then Satan rocks up anyway to ruin all your efforts

So why bother!

Abusers work dam hard to convince as many as possible how great they are

In my opinion so they can get away with abuse

After all, if your popular no one cares your screwing over x y z.

Wow this has turned into a fascinating thread of conversation!
I am so blessed by all the differing opinions and interesting viewpoints!
I try to steer clear of labels and judgements, but alas, in the case of my mother I do struggle a bit. It is not up to me to judge her heart, just protect myself from her if I need to.
And the labels of good and bad don't really make sense anywhere, because it is all so negotiable and dependent on various factors that you all have mentioned.

I guess the more pertinent question now has become, if I am trying to be a force of love in this world, how do I justify maintaining a wall between me and another being? I know I have to have and !maintain boundaries, but I am at a fine line with this. I have to protect myself from people that have or would harm me, yet I am not one who is good at severing relationships.

Ojk well I'm blathering, but good discussion anyway