"One, that it didn't 'work" in your case doesn't mean it wasn't important to do. You don't know whether it would "fix" the issues that caused him to have an affair or not, because you can never know exactly how much of that really played into it."

No, you are misunderstanding. I hear what you are saying, and I disagree.
What I am saying is that I don't think there was anything I could have done differently to make him not cheat.
The reason he cheated ultimtely was NOT becaue I was doing poor job as a wife of communicating to my husband that I loved him. He knew I loved him, he knew I went out of my way for him all the time, and he even commented on how I did. i wasn't perfect...but I did nothing, NOTHING that caused him to go out and cheat.
He cheated not because our marriage was imperfect. He cheated because HE is a weak, selfish person who looks for momentary satisfaction rather than long term companionship. He cheated because of a character flaw that HE and many other CS have.

"Two, there is the possibility that while you felt you were meeting his needs or what you believed to be his needs, it was actually missing the target, it wasn't the needs that would say to him, "I love you." "

If I wasn't meeting his needs adequately, why did he keep complimenting the fact that he could see the changes I made and that it was helping? If that's the case...my work to chnge and stroke his ego made him go from not communcating with me at all to bold face lying. I'm thinking that's highly unlikely.

My theory? There were needs he had that no matter how hard I worked, I wouldn't be able to fill.

For me, saying that my husband cheated because his needs weren't being met by me sounds an awful lot like giving me some of the responsibility of him cheating. To me, saying "well, maybe you thought you were meeting his needs, but weren't actually doing it and that contributed to him cheating and continuing to cheat," sounds an awful lot like I take part of the blame. Infidelity was 100% his choice, his fault, his responsibility. While I do accept 50% responsibility for the problems in our marriage (neither of our needs being met, the communication breakdown, etc...), I did nothing to cause him to cheat. And there was nothing I could have done that would have prevented him from cheating. That's all on HIM.

I learned how to better tell future partners, "I love you," not because I think it will prevent them from cheating on me. I do feel that it's important to meet your partner's needs to have a good relationship.

@Natty,

I hear you, and really I don't think we're really in disagreement. I think we're looking at it from two sides of the same coin.

Yes, I recall reading in "Not Just Friends" that there doesn't need to be a "problem" in the marriage for cheating to happen. As a matter of fact, if you'd asked either me or my wife before this all happened if we were happy in our marriage, we both would have given a resounding yes. Sure, there were areas that could have been improved. But I think we'd both sort of figured that was the way things were and at least on my end, I didn't expect any big improvements beyond what I had. And knowing that, I was content even though there were needs of mine she wasn't meeting. I was still happy in our marriage. And she appeared to be as well, and had said so on many occasions.

And you are right, fixing those things is about the marriage. And fixing those may or may not have prevented the affair to begin with, nor may it prevent a further affair. But obviously it does help to put broken marriages back together after an affair if that guy's statistics are on the money.

So yes, it is primarily a marriage issue. But I think it goes a bit beyond that. Feeling like someone loves you, from your heart, is provided by the actions another gives. How they treat you. It is the feeling you get in first dating. The point being, that doing those things that communicate to the other person, "I love you," is the spark. In a marriage, it may ebb and flow, but to keep it flowing takes attention and work, it doesn't happen naturally except in the excitement of first dating and such.

But for many marriages, that spark dies down to a trickle if any. A little spurt here and there may happen, maybe once a year at the anniversary. But someone who keeps that spark alive on a regular basis in their relationship, another spark isn't going to seem all that enticing.

And that's where it can play a part (notice I said can, not will) in making temptation less for many people. And, as NJF noted, even that may not stop an affair from happening, because it is a many-headed thing. There can be all sorts of contributing factors that lead a person to decide to do something like that. But only one reason: they decided to do what they knew was wrong because they gave into whatever passion was raging in them at the time.

But it is sort of like the stars. You can only see them at night. But when the sun is out, they are out shown by the sun's glory. If they love in a marriage is kept vibrant and alive, and not allowed to die off, the romantic and exciting love, I have to believe for most people that will make any other "exciting spark" not even show up on the radar. Certainly not for everyone that would be true, but many I think that would be true.

Thank you for the compliment. I don't think we're that far off, and where we truly disagree, isn't a big deal here. Thanks for the discussion.

@roller, you said, "No, you are misunderstanding. I hear what you are saying, and I disagree.
What I am saying is that I don't think there was anything I could have done differently to make him not cheat. "

But you are not addressing the general, you are addressing your specific situation. I agree, in your case, it probably had little to nothing to do with whether he cheated or not. As you said, he is a serial cheater, a sex addict most likely, and that is a different ball of wax. Based on what I've read, most CS's are not serial cheaters or sex addicts. And doing fixing the "I love you" thing probably won't make a dimes difference in his case as to what he does. And you have proven that to be the case.

However, that one example doesn't disprove the case for all the CS's out there who are not serial cheaters. Who gave in at a moments weakness, who realize they made a big mistake.

But it seems you are not getting the distinction of what I'm saying, or you wouldn't be saying it still sounds like I'm trying to say it was your fault he cheated, or that any CS cheated on his or her spouse. Easy to understand why that might be the case when we're dealing with an issue as big as this one is.

So let's look at it this way. Say I'm prone to drink too much. And i walk home every day on a certain route. One day as I walk along, I notice someone just built a bar right on my route. I decide to have a drink, so I go in. And instead of one, I have several. In my drunken stupor, I veer into the road, causing a mother with kids in her car to dodge me, and hit oncoming traffic, killing them.

Now, was this accident the bar owner's fault? (There are some in society who would say yes.) Or is it my fault for drinking more than I know I should? Now, the bar owner did build the building, and if he hadn't of, that accident probably never would have happened. The bar owner provided the temptation for me to drink.

Not a one-to-one correlation there with adultery, but you get my drift. If I had paid more attention to my wife, if she felt that spark of love for me like she did when we first dated and were married, would that have reduced the temptation of the other man's spark he created in her? I think it would have. Whether it would have been enough to make her not be that taken with his spark, I don't know. Will never know.

But let's just assume if I had done that, that she would have brushed him off instead of being drawn into texting him. And somehow we knew that would have been the case, if I had done it.

Would that make me at fault for her cheating? No. Even though she could point to that, could point to having a "'mid-life crisis," because she wanted to experience things she didn't as a teen, could point to being naive about flirting and such, and before she realized what was happening, she was sucked into a vortex of passions and fog-based rationalizations that kept her going deeper and deeper until she went all the way.

She could have pointed to all that. And initially she did feel more like a victim. But then she saw herself as the responsible party and she's been struggling with what she's done since. But even in the midst of her feeling the victim, she never pointed at me and said, "I cheated because you didn't spend enough time with me." She owned it from dday on. It's just the fog dissipated away over a couple of weeks or so.

Blameshifting is a problem, especially with someone like a serial cheater, because they really don't ever come out of the fog at all. Don't want to. They live in the fog. So they think like a person in the fog all the time. And certainly a serial cheater is going to take things like that and try to justify what they did. And we both know that's bogus.

But I think identifying where both have failed, and work to better the marriage, and reduce temptations for both partners by making each other the focus of romantic love, and not just the long term, daily grind love that carries us through the years, is a valid and helpful approach to limiting the average person from cheating. Won't stop everyone or in all instances. But it will in many, and that's worth doing.

But I will add this. A couple who does it, should do it first for themselves and second for the marriage as a whole. It is a side benefit if it prevents cheating from happening down the road. Problem is, neither of them will ever know it did prevent it in most cases.

But in your case, I agree. This would not have stopped him from cheating, as you already tried and found out. But that doesn't change how this may work with non-serial CS's.

And you are certainly not at fault for his cheating, even if you were the worst wife ever. It is all in his lap.

Oh, I meant to make one other distinction that I hoped my get the idea across here.

Where it comes to the affair, this meeting of needs isn't addressed to the betterment of the marriage. For sure, this will result in that, but what I'm saying specifically as it relates to an affair is in the area of temptation reduction/control.

If one's spouse feels in his/her heart that the other loves them, experiences that spark from their spouse, it can reduce the temptation to look elsewhere for it, or to be drawn to an opportunity that presents itself.

But a spouse who unknowingly, or really even knowing (though that would be mean) increases the temptation for those things cannot be the cause and blame for the person giving into the temptation. But if it does reduce the temptation in a normal person, and avoids their weakness being activated, it is worth doing. Acknowledging that in no way releases the CS from full blame for deciding to give into that temptation.

Nor is the CS seeking outside the marriage for a 'solution," because the CS at that point isn't seeking a solution, he's succumbing to a weakness due to a temptation. Few CS's says to themselves, "Boy, my wife certainly hasn't been giving me much sex over the last few months. Maybe one time the whole year. Hum, what should I do about this? Find another woman? Yeah, that's the ticket." There are some that do, but most don't. They might if they recognized what was going on, but all they know is a hot woman crosses their paths that flirts with him, and suddenly his passion kicks in and he finds he's craving her. He's not seeking a solution to a problem at that point, he's giving into temptation.

And the fact it is a temptation indicates what he is about to do is wrong. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a temptation in the true sense of the word. It's only a temptation if you aren't supposed to have it.

So upping the temptation doesn't implicate the BS at all, no matter how blameworthy they are for that temptation. Otherwise, God would be implicated big time. After all, He's the one that put that "apple" in the garden and said to Adam, "You can eat from any tree except this one." Dangled that fruit in front of him. Yeah, it's all God's fault Adam chose to sin.

But if we can reduce the temptation, it could prevent further instances and aid in the rebuilding of the marriage by focusing the couple on each other for the romantic spark. It won't prevent all CS's from doing it again, there are always cases like yours where other factors outweigh what a romantic spark can provide. There is still that 20% there that don't make it despite that. But in general, it will help many.

If we disagree that this can help marriages rebuild after an affair and aid in the prevention of further cheating by the CS, then I guess we'll have to disagree. I think the statistics show that it does help in that regard. I fear I'll just be repeating myself to say much more, but if further clarification will help, I'll give it as I have time. Hopefully this discussion has been helpful to some.

Wow, I am going to say it again, in my own way.

...and this is what I said to myself when I found out about my EX's affair...

'I knew we were in trouble. I didn't know we were this done.'

While I can understand how our marriage got to the point that he cheated, I will not, under any circumstances, condone his choice to step out of the bounds of our marriage vows. I did nothing in my marriage that would allow that or give it permission, in any way.

If I didn't say I love you, so what? If I didn't step up for a time? So what? If I didn't do whatever, so what? We were still married and living as a married couple.

All of this makes it appear that I had something to do with his choice to cheat.

Nope, I won't accept that.

Like ever.

I'm out.

L~

In your specific situation, that my be a totally accurate statement. He may have cheated had you been the most loving and caring person on the planet.

But as I clearly said, if I did something that created more temptation for my wife to cheat, that doesn't mean I'm to blame in the least. But to ignore it as a possible influence doesn't make any sense either. I'm guilty for not treating her in a way that showed I loved her. She is guilty for dealing with that lack of feeling in the wrong way. And she would be equally guilty if I was totally callous toward her, rarely spoke to her, ignored her completely all the time, etc. as much as if I was the perfect model of what a husband should be.

But again, if we want to rebuild, it makes sense to deal with all influences that brought it about in the first place regardless of who's to blame or guilty. If reducing temptation makes the rebuilding success more likely to happen, guess what? I'm going to do the things that do that, as well as make my marriage stronger.

I understand your situation turned out differently, and likely there was nothing you could do that would have changed him from doing what he did. But even if you could have, that puts none of the blame on you. For some reason that concept seems hard to grasp. People feel if they had some influence in increasing the temptation, that then they are to blame for their spouse's decision to cheat or are in some sense responsible. That just flat ain't so. Don't know how I could state it any clearer than I already have.

Note: this is applying it in general, what will help in a good number of situations. It may not apply at all in any one specific situation. If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, ignore it.

You were guilty of not spending as much time with your wife as maybe you should have been.

What about all the other ways that you DID say "I love you" that your wife chose to forget and overlook?

In the beginning of our relationship (we were married for five years, but were in a relationship for eight years. We had a son who was two when we got married), my ex spent all of his time at work. I interpreted that as, "Omg, he never wants to spend time with our family, he doesn't love me." When I communicated my feelings to him, he explained that we had no money and a young child, and that him working all the time was his way of taking care of me. I was looking at the situation as he didn't love me, when in actuality I was ignoring his message- that he did love me and wanted me to live a life of security and comfort.

My husband never did the dishes. It drove me crazy, and there were certainly times where I felt like, "gosh, if he loved me, he would care that going to bed with dishes in the sink bothers me. Clearly he doesn't care about my feelings." No, he didn't say, "i love you," in that particular way. But he DID get up early on sunday mornings with our son and let me sleep in without me having to ask...from day one. That showed me that he loved me.

My point is, Cole, no, maybe you didn't go to the grocery store with your wife or talk every waking second. But I'm sure that you were doing other things that, at least in your mind, showed your wife that you loved her. Isn't it convenient that she "forgot" all of those things, but remembered all the times you neglected her by making her go to the store alone.

I don't think that the BS should have to make changes in order for the CS to stop cheating. Make changes in order to live a happy married life, yes. Make changes in order to improve the marriage yes. But if YOU are doing work to fix the infidelity which wasn't your fault...then your wife isn't doing the work she probably needs to do. I think it's like giving them a copout. Like if your kid makes a mess in his room, and you clean half of it for him.

BTW: my ex-husband is not a sex addict, thanks.

@roller, you said, "What about all the other ways that you DID say "I love you" that your wife chose to forget and overlook? "

Oh, she was aware of them. I don't think she necessarily overlooked them. The case may be, however, that some of the things I would interpret as saying "I love you" didn't to her. So I may have been thinking that's what I was communicating, but didn't. Part of the issue. But we both were in love with one another, despite some of the issues I noted. Neither of us thought we had a bad marriage.

I don't think she forgot those times I did successfully communicate, "I love you" to her. If that were the case, I doubt our marriage would have lasted almost 29 years before this hit. But the areas I failed in did contribute to a lack in her. One we both should have worked on fixing. And yes, some things she did contributed to a lack in me.

I should note, she has done a stellar job of doing the things she's needed to to, taking the attitude she needed to take. Some of it didn't happen right way, some of it did. But she is doing all she can to fix her problems. And we both have recognized that the bulk of whether this rebuilding succeeds is on her shoulders. If it succeeds, it will be because she desired it enough to do the hard things she is doing. If it fails, it will because she didn't follow through.

But that doesn't stop me from needing to fix whatever issues made it harder for her in the first place, and I want to be able to say that I did what I needed to do to make the marriage better, to give the rebuilding as good of a chance of succeeding as possible.

"I don't think that the BS should have to make changes in order for the CS to stop cheating. Make changes in order to live a happy married life, yes. Make changes in order to improve the marriage yes."

I agree. If the CS is going to cheat, they are going to cheat. But if making those changes that are good for the marriage does also reduce the temptation for the CS to cheat (not saying it does in all cases) then why not do it? I have nothing to prove to my wife on that score. I'll do whatever I can that will help her. And I don't feel by doing that that I'm claiming some responsibility. I do it because I love her and want her to succeed. Bottom line.

"BTW: my ex-husband is not a sex addict, thanks."

I shouldn't have assumed because you said he is a serial cheater that he is a sex addict. If he can't seem to stop himself, I would assume he's addicted to something, if he really wants to stop but finds it near impossible through will power or deciding. But that would be up to a therapist to diagnose, not me.

Thanks for the discussion. And if I've caused any offense, I didn't mean to. Each person's situation is different and I'm speaking in generalities that may or may not apply to any one situation, and so I'm not pronouncing judgment on you, that any BS here is at fault, or didn't do enough, or whatever. But I've said that enough times.

I think the problem with this discussion came in when you were telling people that they were dissing their spouses needs, that showing their spouses love wasn't important, and they were ignoring the importance of addressing marital problems because they don't accept responsibility for influencing their spouse's actions. These things cannot be assumed to go hand-in-hand, and, IMO, is kind of insulting to people who are working on their marriages despite a serious betrayal.

The difficulty in reconciling addressing marital issues while discussing the affair, which even you point out, is why I feel so strongly about not dealing with the two together in most cases. Some people are able to handle it this way, but my sense from what I've been reading here for almost 2 years now is that most are not. It wasn't until I was able to put away some of the demons of the affair that I was able to look more honestly at myself and what I could do to improve our relationship (though ALL relationships can be improved. And, off course, that works both ways, too.) What I see as more beneficial is the CS identifying THEIR behaviors that led them to cheat, i.e., "I became attracted to this person. I started telling this person things I never should have and should have been discussing with you. I demonized our marriage in order to justify my actions when, in reality, any issues we may have had were very fixable and could have been addressed. I lied, I betrayed, and I did it because I was completely and utterly selfish with no regard for anyone else's feelings at the time. It made me feel good and I acted on it. In order to act on it, I had to distort reality. It wasn't about what you did or didn't do, it was about me acting on what I wanted to do at the time."

THEN, once you get some distance from the act itself, the lies, betrayal, etc. (because we agree that those things have nothing to do with the BS), and have some sense of closure about the A itself, THEN you discuss what you and your spouse can do to have a happier relationship. Because then it's not like saying, "Well, when I met the OP, I was really upset because you weren't paying enough attention to me and I was lonely." Instead, they say, "Well, I would like for us to spend more time together. I miss the days when we would go out regularly, alone or with friends. I would like for us to have a date night at least once a month." Do you see how that would be more productive? I'm willing to bet money that for most people doing it the other way around is going to be a setback for the BS emotionally, and I don't think that does any good at all.

And, ultimately, isn't the result the same? That marital problems get addressed, each partner is heard, and, hopefully, the relationship improves? I don't see why it would have to go hand-in-hand with treatment of the affair. The suggestion that not doing so means people don't care about their spouse's needs or whether they feel loved is going to rub people the wrong way, because it's just not automatically true, and that's what I think happened here.

I'm not going to tell anyone that addressing the two subjects together is wrong somehow, though I would advise that it can be detrimental to recovery because of the way it may be processed by the BS. But I won't say that you're wrong. While there are so many similarities in recovering from an affair, we all have to address it in our own ways. I just don't find it helpful to tell others that by addressing the issue differently, they are dissing their spouses needs, don't care if they feel loved, and ignore things proven to help couples recover. It assumes facts not in evidence (negatively, to boot) and it puts people on the defensive.

@Natty,

Thanks for clarifying where some misunderstanding might be taking place. I had no intentions of communicating some of the things you mentioned, and I had hoped I made that clear.

The "dissing" part is only referencing one of the things I've seen, that "appear" to indicate a dissing. And that is when the CS mentions that they felt unloved because of the lack of X in the marriage, that is automatically dismissed as a real need for the CS to feel loved. Nothing beyond that was intended to be implied in the "dissing" aspect.

I understand the reaction, being that it can and may very well be the CS trying to blameshift. But sometimes I think the CS is simply trying to sort it out themselves and look for reasons why they did what they did. Not to cast blame, but what were the motivating factors. And it may be more brainstorming and talking out loud, hoping to work their way to the real underlying reason, like the scenery on the way to the real destination.

But what I've read when that is mentioned as a real need is it is shallow, and unimportant. He just wanted his ego stroked. How lame is that. I know what the BS is really saying is in reaction to a perceived (whether true or not) blame being placed on them for the affair, and so they react back. But the problem there is once the BS starts doing that, the CS shuts up. And then the BS complains that the CS won't talk to them about it. And that's because when they did start talking about what they were experiencing, the BS took it as an attack on him/her and reacted defensively (as has been exhibited here) and that causes the CS to think twice about stating how they really feel about it.

It's the dynamic of the interaction I'm addressing. I'm referring that when that happens, from the CS's pov, it can sound like the BS is dissing how they feel, how they receive love, and saying that doesn't matter. Because the CS is trying to figure out why they did what they did, but the BS sees it as pointing the finger at them instead of the CS taking responsibility. Which it may very well be the case. But it also may not be.

So using the technique in "Not Just Friends," you'd say back to the CS what you heard, "So what I hear you saying is because I didn't do X for you, that you felt justified in cheating on me," as opposed to, "That's a stupid reason to cheat on me." The first can open the door to further exploration and communication, the later shuts it down.

But the main point about the dissing is dismissing the CS's need as a valid need, just as valid as any of your own. But, whether that actually happened in any one case I don't know. I wasn't there when it happened, I was in neither head. As I said, if this applies and helps, use it. If it doesn't apply to someone's situation, ignore it. I'm not telling anyone what to do, only pointing out a pitfall I think some might be missing in the heat of the situation, and missing out on real healing in the process by automatically dismissing his or her need to feel loved in the way they receive that, *if that is what is happening.* I'll leave that to the individual to know whether that is happening.

On the other point, that it is best to wait until the affair is dealt with and the heat has died down, I think certainly it is easier to deal with some of that for some people after the anger and hurt has healed to some extent.

But if the statistics are correct, that around 35% more couples get through the rebuilding stage in better shape if they address these things, that would indicate that a lot of couples won't be around to work on their marriage if they wait until the affair is dealt with that would otherwise be successful in staying together.

It may be that a BS simply can't focus on themselves and their marriage to better it during the crazy time of dealing with the affair(s). I understand that, having gone through it myself. Maybe my personality allows me to be able to do that easier, or being a man, or whatever, I don't know. I'm sure many are not in a place to look at what they can do to make the marriage better. They may not really feel like communicating to their spouse, "I love you" even though that would be healing in the long term.

But it appears to work, that when the couple can reignite the romantic spark and love through doing the things that truly communicate "I love you." But I know that alone is not enough. That's assuming the CS is doing all that he/she needs to do in the way of being open, transparent, all the things we know they need to do if rebuilding is to succeed. But this is one ingredient in the healing process. If one can come to the place where they can look at where they failed the marriage without feeling like they are blaming themselves for the affair, I think that is a worthwhile and healing process as soon as you can do it, as it will help the healing of the affair.

Or maybe I could put this another way. The CS needs to heal too. Yes, they did this to themselves. Yes, it is totally their fault for cheating, and they are reaping the consequences of what they've sown. Yes, the success of the rebuilding is mostly up to them. Blame and responsibility aside, the fact is they are damaged as well, and if the rebuilding is to succeed, they need to heal as well as the BS. And if the rebuilding is to succeed, both parties must be on board with doing whatever they can to help the healing of both. If someone doesn't do that, the chance of rebuilding succeeding are greatly reduced.

Note, I'm not pointing fingers at any one situation and saying the BS didn't do what they could have and that's why it failed. But if the goal is to rebuild and a couple love each other, why would both not do all they could do to make that succeed?

But if a BS simply isn't at the place they can do that, that's a different issue. To some degree there needs to be enough healing in regards to the deceit and shock of the affair, through the CS's actions before the BS will feel comfortable trusting enough to commit to rebuilding the marriage. And we all come to that point in different time frames. But once that commitment to rebuild has been made, and the CS is doing the things they need to do to heal the situation, there is no reason to wait until there the healing of the affair is nearly over to work on the marriage.

But maybe we're saying the same thing here and I'm just misreading your statement.

Thanks for the explanation of why some may be feeling defensive despite my repeated attempts and explanations as to why I'm not saying the BS has any responsibility for the CS cheating. But at times, i don't recall by who, I've read statements that did sound like the BS was dissing the feelings of the CS by saying something along those lines. Whether that is what was actually happening or not, I don't know. That's just the way it read to me. I understand some may feel defensive if they perceive that's what they did.

I'm not trying to intentionally make people defensive, but I can't totally control that. Just describing one pitfall that some appear to fall into. Whether they did or not is not up to me to judge, but themselves. If it doesn't apply in anyone's particular case, then there's not much reason to be defensive.

Ironcially, my wife and I while reading in "Not Just Friends" came across a section that described perfectly what I was trying to say. Wish I'd read it sooner, because then I could have just quoted this to begin with. But thought it might be helpful to quote it here. I don't have page numbers since it is an ebook. Here's the quote:

"Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass
Chapter 9: The Story of Your Marriage

Regardless of what marital problems may or may not have preceded the affair, both partners need to use the aftermath, which can be from three months to two years, to strengthen the relationship. How long this takes depends on a lot of factors, including how distressed the marriage was before the affair. This time of rebuilding is designed to examine and strengthen. Needless to say, exploring problems in your marriage is not intended as a way to excuse the betrayal. A roof needs to be repaired regardless of whether it collapsed because of a slowly decaying frame or was in great shape before it was struck by lightning.

[skipping down a ways]

Subheading: The Martial Lifeline: A Unique History

Exploring the context that set the stage for an affair must also include the unique events that illustrate each couple's marital history.

Your objective should be to figure out how the relationship got off track and how to get it back on course. This is hard to do if either partner's judgment is clouded by the censure and condemnation that obscures the delicate thread of shared truth. One of the challenges of discussing the events along the marital lifeline is to do it without casting blame. It's important to see what role each partner played in marital problems without holding the betrayed partner responsible for the affair. Contributing to marital problems is not the same as causing infidelity.

"Happily, she has been meeting both of those needs of mind in spades, especially since dday"

Unfortunately, this newly awakened sexual robustness from your wife will fade out quickly. Probably as soon as she either feels safe enough that you won't leave her, or her shame dissipates....whichever comes first.

Earlier in the thread, you said: "What I'm hearing you and other say here, is that telling your spouse in a way that they can understand, "I love you," is not important and should be dismissed."

I was addressing the fact that you directed your comments specifically toward myself and others participating in this thread, not non-specific members you recall making non-specific comments in the past. And I don't see where anyone said things here that should have led to this conclusion. So, from my perspective, it was unfair within the context of this discussion. That's what I was trying to say.

"But what I've read when that is mentioned as a real need is it is shallow, and unimportant. He just wanted his ego stroked. How lame is that. I know what the BS is really saying is in reaction to a perceived (whether true or not) blame being placed on them for the affair, and so they react back."

Once again, I believe the responses here (because comments outside this discussion arent really relevant) show that it's not the need the BS sees as lame but the way the CS chose to get that need met. So much destruction for something that might have been addressed through thoughtful communication between spouses. That IS lame (to say the least). The CS should be able to accept that, because that's part of avoiding the same behavior in the future.

And that's because when they did start talking about what they were experiencing, the BS took it as an attack on him/her and reacted defensively (as has been exhibited here) and that causes the CS to think twice about stating how they really feel about it.

You should include, then, that the CS ALSO needs to address the subject in an effective manner. Like learning to talk about the A without talking about what was wrong in the marriage at the same time, but rather owning the behavior and then moving on to things BOTH spouses need to improve. It may not be so much an attack as it is an unfair and unproductive way to deal with it. In the same way a CS may withdraw as a result of the BSs reaction, the BS may withdraw as a result of the CS expecting them to sit there and take an onslaught of what they did wrong while the CS is explaining why theyve been screwing someone else. It adds insult to injury and it can be very harmful.

When I asked the questions about why it happened and the answer included what I did wrong (not to mention, the BS is not the only one who made mistakes), it was never going to help me heal. Cognitive dissonance at its finest. If the BS is expected to change their reaction, then isnt it fair for the CS to change the way they approach it? When the approach changes, the reaction is likely to change. This goes both ways. If my H could own his behavior, I could own mine.

But once that commitment to rebuild has been made, and the CS is doing the things they need to do to heal the situation, there is no reason to wait until there the healing of the affair is nearly over to work on the marriage.

What is nearly over? Is it ever over? It has been my experience that some healing can literally happen in a single moment. When my H has said things that I had so long needed to hear, I often felt a sense of relief immediately and a new closeness to him that made me want to act more positively toward him. I am far from being healed from the affair, if it is ever possible to be completely healed (whatever that means), but we have most certainly worked on the marriage.

When I speak of closure regarding the affair itself, I am talking about the actions of the CS while the A was going on. (I recall our MC had described it as a book that would eventually be put on the shelf.) For me, putting away the details of what happened is something I have pretty much been able to do, but the emotional aftermath remains, though certainly less than it was in the beginning. It was after the constant ruminating over what he did subsided that I was able to focus on other things. It takes time and both spouses have to be patient. But I think it is probably a natural progression that as healing happens, so does positive change in the marriage.

You singled myself and others out suggesting we don't think it is important to show our spouses love in the way they understand. To me, that's a negative accusation, and I don't know where I or anyone else said anything that warranted that. Implying blame for the affair is not really the issue for me here. The issue is attributing thoughts or feelings to people that haven't said they think or feel that way. That's where my problem was.

It seems if needs are not being met due to lack of communication then it is the fault of the spouse who feels their needs are not being met. However if one has clearly communicated what it is that they need from the other and the other blatently ignores those needs it would then be disrespect. I can see how that would lead to cheating. I know that my H had requests and wants from me and I had what I wanted from him. We both felt our wants/needs were important. I would fulfill his until it seemed as though I was the only one doing so. Then i would pull back and say screw that crap, I will be damned if I am going to muster up energy and desire for sex when I would rather be sleeping if he cant sit up for 30 min a couple nights a week and just talk without sex. And so it was a vicious cycle of push me pull me for many years. We are still struggling with our marriage and how to make it all work.

@Natty, you said, "You singled myself and others out suggesting we don't think it is important to show our spouses love in the way they understand. To me, that's a negative accusation, and I don't know where I or anyone else said anything that warranted that. Implying blame for the affair is not really the issue for me here. The issue is attributing thoughts or feelings to people that haven't said they think or feel that way. That's where my problem was. "

My first post wasn't in response to any communication in this thread and I was responding to some statements I'd heard before by people who hadn't even participated in this thread, and I don't even remember who they were. Some of it was from weeks ago that i recall.

I don't ever recall you or others here making any statements that you did or didn't do things because you didn't love your spouse, etc, and I've always attempted to make it clear I wasn't talking about anything anyone here in this thread said in attempting to clarify the comments of my first post.

I'm sorry you took the comments as directed against you or anyone else in the thread. There is plenty of threads here about what the CS should do, and if you've read other post I've written on that, you know I'm fully on board with them doing most all the work of healing. I've even said as much in this thread more than once.

But my initial post wasn't about that specific topic. I didn't think I needed to explain that when that is so well covered.

Again, sorry you took the comments as directed toward you. I tried to make a good effort to ensure you didn't take them that way, but I guess I failed on that point. I apologize.