Possibly, but I think we can get more than venting out of our membership in ds. We learn by listening to each other. Nothing is more valuable than that. Personally, I have enjoyed the recent discussions and learned a great deal from each of you. I hope we can continue to have stimulating discussions on things pertinent to our lives.

I think we need to do the obvious before we turn over our healthcare to the government.

By reforming the malpractice lottery, permitting interstate competition by insurers, eliminating the pre-existing conditions restrictions, and making health savings accounts a better deal, I believe we could solve much of the problem right there.

In NJ, tough government restrictions kept auto insurers out of our state for many years. The result? The nation's highest auto insurance rates. Then several years ago they loosened the restrictions. Our insurance premiums were cut by more than half.

Sara, I think you bring some very valid points to the table. Hope you have sent these to your congressman!

That is what the health care debate is supposed to be about - everyone pitching their ideas of what to do to improve things. And the final plan won't necessarily be the final plan - things will evolve and change. What I do not like is when everyone wants to pretend there is nothing wrong, nothing needs fixing, just leave everything alone as it is. We're like the person on the second floor of a burning building. There's firemen below with the net telling us to jump and they'll catch us. But, what if we miss the net, what if they drop us, what if we hit head first and break our neck? So, we stand there, paralyed by fear of the unknown and perish in the fire instead. Every other industrialzed nation in the world, along with hundreds of smaller nations, can provide health care for their citizens - better health care for lower prices - but we believe they are all wrong and we're the only ones who got it right?

Unfortunately, I think the media have left that impression, by painting opponents of this particular bill as "against reform."

Everyone I know, of all political stripes, realizes that something needs to be done.

What has be suspicious is that what amounts to a government takeover of healthcare was tried once before and failed miserably. Now they're not only trying something similar, but claiming it needs to be rushed through.

I admit something must be done, but something just seems "off" about the crisis mode. Our economy was and is in a crisis, and something needed to be done. Being attacked requires something to be done right now. But I think we have the time to really debate this issue so that whatever the final (or semi-final) solution is, has considered all things.

IMHO, all of this town hall/public input stuff should have come first, instead of after a bill was already written.

I agree that most realize something needs to be done but not immediately. It needs to be talked out extensively. The media did hype the negative side. We'll see what the speech brings tonight.

I am waiting for the speech, too. We debated this same thing to death 16 years ago, and here we are 16 years later with the same old tired debates.

If anyone here really believes that you have control of your health care, you don't have insurance. Insurance companies dictate how long we can stay in the hospital, if we can have surgery, which drugs we can and cannot have, and even which hospital we can go to. A friend's insurance will pay for an annual physical not subject to deductibles. She got a bill for her physical and asked why it was not covered. The insurance company told her that she had discussed back pain with her doctor during the physical, so it was not covered. When she filled out the physical form asking if she had any concerns, she mentioned that her back sometimes hurt. According to the insurance company rules, the appointment then became a regular appointment, not a physical, so it was not covered.

There was a story in the newspaper about a woman who had private insurance and paid her own health insurance premiums for three years, then was diagnosed with cancer. The insurance company sent a form to her doctor, then sent her a letter. They said that she had lied on her insurance application because she said she did not have any problems with headaches, but in 1995 she had been treated for a headache. Since she had lied on her application, her insurance was cancelled, retroactive to the start date. She would be refunded her premiums she had paid for the past 3 years, and she would have to re-pay the insurance company for all medical care they had paid, including her cancer treatments. The article said it was becomming common practice for one particular insurance company to do that.

If you look at the definition of socialism (as in socialized medicine) it means the equitable distribution of services by the people. If you look at the definition of capitalism, it means competition for profit. Guess which way I would prefer my health care? We have for profit now and look where it's gotten us.

Take cancer for example. There is no money to be made if you find a cure. If you cure it, you're done. Think of the economic devastation of this country if cancer was cured. Every drug company with their $500 pills, every oncologist, radiation labs, all of the surgeons, the companies that make all of the equipment, nurses, entire hospitals, all out of business. Not much incentive for them to find a cure, is there? The money is in treatment, not cures, and that is where the research dollars are going. If they're looking to make a profit, they don't want a cure for a disease, they want treatments.

A co-worker's husband repaired a product for a client. When he called to tell him that it was done, the man sounded very down and said he was having a rough time. His wife was diagnosed with cancer, it was not responding to treatment, there was no hope and she only had 3 months to live. Her husband told him not to to worry about the product - whenever he was ready, just stop by to get it.

Six months later the man came by and, when asked how he was doing, he said he was great. Her husband was surprised by the answer and asked him about his wife, and the man said that she was cured. He said they went to a clinic in Mexico and they cured her - the doctors here can find no trace of the cancer. He said the doctor at the clinic said "Some cancers we can't do anything for, some we can shrink, and some we can cure. Your wife's is the type that we can cure." They stayed at a beautiful resort for two weeks, she had the treatments, and came home cured for a total cost of $7,000. He said that he and his insurance company had spent $250,000 here only to tell her she was going to die anyway. When he asked the Mexican doctor why that treatment is not available in the U.S., he said "Because your health care is run by the big drug companies."

On a personal note, when I needed to quit smoking 15 years ago, I went to a clinic in Canada. If I had been a Canadian citizen, the treatment would have been free, but I had to pay $300. A couple hours later, after the treatment, I walked out a non-smoker and never picked up a cigarette again. That was after multiple attempts here using drugs and stop smoking aids. My friend went to a stop smoking clinic here. It worked too, but it took 8 months and cost thousands of dollars for stop smoking aids and drugs. When people tell me they want to stop smoking, I tell them about the clinic, which has a 98% success rate. They are all very interested until I tell them it's in Canada. They're too afraid to go to a 'foreign' clinic but they're not too afraid to keep smoking.

We are so elitist in this country that we refuse to admit that any other country might have a better treatment. We have been brainwashed to fear anything invented or produced in other countries, including health care systems that have worked beautifully for decades elsewhere.

I hear what you are saying but I personally have had to challenge decisions made by insurance companies and won. I have gone to our state insurance department who is supposed to regulate insurance companies. Blue Cross Blue Shield came out with a policy for individuals, even kids who were not covered by their parents insurance. I signed my gs up and felt blessed that they accepted him with all of of his health concerns. MRI's, cat scans, bone scans, surgeries, you name it. He had had 8 surgeries on his ear and extensive physical and occupational therapy. The premium was $90 a month with a $250 deductible and allowed preexisting conditions. PPO with 80/20 out of network. Wonderful. He was 15 and I thought he would be secure into adulthood. No underwriter would even look at him to be insured. A month before he turned 16, I received a letter that his premium was increasing 60%! I was devastated to say the least. However, I had no choice. I was told he was being rated as any 16 year old in the area we lived in. Well, there were no other 16 year olds in several areas with his list of problems! I called Customer Service and asked if there was another plan with higher deductible and lower premium and was told there was not. I looked again at the CHIP program and found it to be administered by BCBS! I paid one month and wrote a letter to the head of BCBS blasting their tactics. A month later I received a letter stating the polcy was cancelled for lack of payment. I called and asked what happened to my check. They claimed they had no record of the check. I took things into my own hands and went online to BCBS to investigate what they were offering. I found a policy for $90 a month, same deductible, better coverage. I spoke to a Insurance Specialst from BCBS who said it was a great plan and I should take it. I sent in application and check and it too was lost. I contacted the State Insurance Department and reported the lies and deception. The state department went to BCBS and asked them to give my gs the plan online. Turned out the plan was an error, a misquote and did not exist! State Department said: "get this kid insured or else". I got an adult plan for him at $104 a month, same deductible et al. A year and a half later he needed another surgery. It was a hellish day. We were getting ready to leave for hospital and my disabled husband started complaining of shortness of breath, etc. We went to hospital and admitted my husband to ER and I took gs to surgery. When they took him in, I went to ER and admitted my husband to cardiac floor. That evening husband was settled in room and being cared for. I took gs with bandaged head home, stopping on the way to pick up medications at pharmacy. "Your policy is cancelled". What???? Turned out we had an identity theft threat two months previous and I had changed our bank acccount. I called BCBS immediately and gave them info for automatic withdrawal. They did not process it. The RX cost me over $200 that night. I called BCBS and asked what more I could do than give them access to my checking account to withdraw premium. They said to reinstate it I would have to send a check for two months premium which I did. They also withdrew the premium from my account. Now you all know that most of us are suffering financially because we have taken in grandkids. We are no different and have had several other hits on our budget also. They kept sending premium notices and I wound up paying over $300 above what was owed. It was almost Christmas. I sent them another check which they also lost. They took all but my last $20 from my checking account the day before Xmas Eve. This was the money I had carefully set aside for a few presents and our holiday dinner. Needless to say it was not the happiest Christmas. They paid me back in February and we got the auto withdrawal going again. Now forgive me for going on about this but BCBS administers most government plans. Can you imagine what it will be like if they get the contract to administer our national health care????? I can.

There's so much incompetence in so many areas. I've run into many, and I think it's equally divded between government and non-government.

This is sort of off the topic but still related to health care. My husband's employer changed health plans this year. An annual physical is covered 100% and not subject to co-pays and deductibles like a regular office visit is. I just received a bill for my annual physical. When I called to ask why, I was told that the medical clinic had coded it as though it was a regular office visit rather than a physical. So I called the billing department at the clinic. I was told that because I was diagnosed with an underactive thyroid last year, I now have an 'on-going medical condition' and a portion of every physical, per AMA gudielines, must be billed as a regular office visit. I was also told that the only way an annual physical can be coded as such for anyone is if the patient tells their doctor that they are not allowed to discuss any medical condition they might find or the results of any blood tests. So then, what would be the point in going? In other words, I will never have an annual physical again - it will be forever coded as a regular office visit. What a racket!

It's interesting what you say about telling the doctor you do not want the results discussed with anyone. Actually, I think that is in your favor. You know how we have to sign a notice at the pharmcy, doctors office, hospital, etc giving them notice to discuss your visit? You have the right to refuse to sign that notice and advise your doctor you want your records confidential. The law says you have that right. I think the school for medical bill coding is two years now because it is so complicated. I would try it again and tell doctor no on permission to discuss. One thing I have found it is that I investigate the why's and why not's and make my demands. You can't just trust people anymore, including professionals. We have been fortunate to have great doctors who work with us and our insurance. They tell us what they can do and cannot do. Developing a relationship with your doctor is important. Anyways, if you have blood test for thyroid condition next time, make sure it is billed seperately from annual physcial. Annual physicals contain certain tests that are covered.

They told me that I am the one who cannot discuss my test results with my doctor if I want it coded as a physical. So, if I go for my physical but tell the doctor that she is not allowed to discuss any findings WITH ME, then it might be coded as a physical, otherwise it is coded as a regular appointment.

So, it's sort of like if you take your car for the $29.99 oil change and 12 point check up. When you go to pick it up, they say "Oh, by the way, we found one belt that's a little weather-checked and we recommend that you have it replaced. That will be $189.99 please." When you say you only brought the car in for the $29.99 oil change and check up, they tell you that since they diganosed a problem and recommended a solution, that is above and beyond the special and you owe them $150 dollars for the diagnosis. That would be illegal, but apparently it's the billing that's recommended billing practice by the AMA. I did tell my doctor that I was concerned about the proper coding, and she told me that if she did not put it in her medical notes that we discussed the results of my thyroid test, that would be construed as fraud.

The form states you are giving permission for doctor to release info to insurance companies. Does your doctor know what she is talking about? If you had a blood test, that would show the problem if doctor didn't note it. A lot of these insurance people can't think without a paper in front of them. If you were not diagnosed with a thyroid problem last year, but talked about it, they cannot hold that against you. Maybe I'm too pushy, but I would fight it. They have to pay for your physicla if that's what is listed in benefits. They can say they won't pay for a part of it but if doctor lists routine physical checks and tests, legally they have to honor it. I w/fight it. I know its a pain in the butt but I think they are steering you in the wrong direction. Good luck.

I think the pharmaceutical and insurance companies along with the doctors have been allowed to get way out of hand! They own the health care in America, and if President Obama has the balls to get pass those people then he has my support for his plan! It is about time we changed things in America; goooo Obama!

hold on. our doctors work with us to make sure we get our benefits from the insurance company and some of them have accepted what insurance companies paid and forgave the rest. The pharmaceutical companies have programs for those who cannot afford their medications and they get them for free! Our insurance company has paid everything and we have not had a problem since we signed on with Aetna in a Medicare Advantage Plan. Obama promised to pull the plug in his campaign and he is doing it. I have done a lot of research on this subject. We do not need more government officials messing up things. What is needed is for people to educate themselves on their insurance benefits and what their rights are. As an example, Medicare was failing terribly when George Bush brought in Medicare Advantage plans. The insurance companies are running the plan fine. If you want to know more about the subject you can read my article: The truth about Medicare, Medicaid and Medicare Advantage on newsflavor.com under opinions by Peggy O'Connor. We each need to be responsbile for ourselves and stop trusting government to make it right.

Wow! I just read, well, skimmed this thread and there are a lot of really good points. My dd (who lives in CA) and I were just discussing this last night.

I agree that tort reform is badly needed and certainly a good place to START!! I am of the belief that a non-profit health care system would be beneficial to this country. It is my opinion that all emergency services should be not for profit. That would bring costs down and would help to eliminate some of the problems caused by the pharmaceudical conglomerates. I guess there is a congressman who is pushing for this type of system reform. I have thought this for a long time! That does not mean cut salaries, I also believe that emergency care people are notoriously underpaid for what they do - but it means things like the tort reform, reforming the pharmaceudical companies and putting into practice the good old law of supply and demand. Also protecting the rights of the emergency care workers AS WELL AS those of the people seeking their services.

But all done on a non-profit basis.

Great comments and a very interesting thread! I'm going to reread it more thoroughly when I have a bit more time!