After so many years of YOU being their mother; I completely agree that she shouldn't get them back. If she AND the boyfriend earn your trust and prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that they are safe to have unsupervised visits, then maybe you could work up to that at some point. It should be whether or not she earns unsupervised visitation and nothing more; in my opinion. At some point, when the kids are in their later teen years, it may become more of an issue, but especially while they are still as young as they are; I wouldn't even consider it.

I so remember taking care of my preemie gs who came home at 4.5lbs (birthweight 2.9lbs). My daughter was in Intensive Care with 1 in 100 chances of living three days. When she survived the tumor and gave birth to her son, we all thought our prayers had been answered. We did not know that the tumor was again growing and would take her life in little more than a year. During that time I was more mother than grandmother as I cared for my dying daughter and her infant son. I realized that her husband might very well marry again and I would not be "grandmom" again, but could not see that he w/marry a crazy person and my gs w/be abused. I think we each need to take a hard look at the facts. We do not have the rights to fight for these children we are giving so much a part of lives to. Sara, you have said that they have a relationship with their mom and that cannot be dismissed for better or for worse. This guy could be a guardian angel, or the devil in disguise. The color of his skin may get your attention but if they marry and ask for kids, they most likely will get them and you can only hope to maintain a relationship. I have known you through ds since you came on and I have seen your relationship grow with these children which will only make it more painful if Pinky takes them back. I hope all will go well and you will be able to survive the emotional beating of loving these kids. Fighting for the stability you have given these kids will be the battleground for you to keep kids. You have shown yourself to be a very strong woman and I hope this strength will carry you through whatever the future holds.

Thanks, Daisy. While I'd love to "get rid of the kids" I don't want to at the same time. And you're absolutely correct: Short of Pinky relapsing, if she does marry this guy and buys a house near us she WILL get them back no matter what we say. What's worse is that the kids will want to go and live with her, and at their ages their wishes will be considered.

I worry about that because I know WE'LL have a handful with them as teenagers. I can't imagine how Pinky will deal with them. Oh, well...we'll have to see.

In my state once the kinship fosters are granted custody the bios can only petition the court every two years to regain their kids. They not only have to have their act together but prove the fosters are providing an unfit environment. Its a good system because it really ensures stability for the kids and not just petty bickering among the adults.

I would think if she gave them up SIX YEARS ago that it wouldn't be a piece of cake for her to just waltz into a courtroom and demand to have them back. But, as you've said before, we're putting the horse before the cart anyway. Much remains to be seen about how this will all pan out. At the very least, if she does indeed marry this man and petition the courts, I would have your attorney ask for a very gradual return to the mother. Pinky should have to prove stability, both in the marriage, and in keeping a home, a job, etc., before being handed "her" kids back. I would think 6 months of unsupervised visits every other weekend; just like in a divorce situation with one night during the week. IF that goes well, move on from there. Those kids might find that they don't like living with her and want to stay in their "home" with the parents who have been there all along. The grass is always greener, but sometimes jumping over that fence and playing there for awhile is a good lesson to learn. My experience has been that kids RESENT new authoritarian figures in their lives and Pinky's older Christian husband (if they get that far) might be a great stepdad, or he might be their worst nightmare.

Mystery: the problem is that not all kinship providers are foster parents. Many (at least 1/3) have informal relationships and are not under state care. Many grandparents are afraid to seek help for fear the state w/remove gc to a strange home if they do not qualify as foster parents. If it is informal, you can almost be sure that bio parents will win in court because grandparents do not have legal standing. It's refreshing to hear that at least one state has a plan that puts the children first.

mystery, the requirements vary by state and even by county, even for kinship guardians.

In my state the bios have to prove they are stable and can provide a stable and nurturing environment and that moving back would be in the best interest of the child. However, they do NOT have to prove the guardian was unfit. They can receive the child back at any point in time, even after 8 or 10 or 12 years.

I sounds like you live in a pretty good state. I hope the courts support that! In my state it all depends upon which county you are in. Thankfully, my ds resided in a pretty good county for social services when gs was taken away. If it had happened in my county, the scenario would have been entirely different.

I don't think your racist at all, your looking out for the children's best interest and your right it will be REAL different for them, I don't understand why these girls seem to think they need ANOTHER MAN, when they could just focus on raising there children and try thinking about whats best for them. Hugs, stay strong!!

THAT is a great question, Texasgirl. Why, oh why, do these girls think they need a man (usually they're actually still just little boys who won't ever grow up)? I mean, don't get me wrong, there are alot of great men out there who are great spouses and great fathers, but with most of the girls we are all dealing with here, they seem to attract the bottom of the barrel. All they do is add stress, aggravation, and drama to the dynamics of an already dysfunctional situation.

I agree that children aren't born racist they are taught that!!!

I was married and had three children all with blond BLOND hair and brown eyes. Met and married a Black man and had a child with him. My children were raised to love and treat eveyone with respect. When their friends met their little brother they would say oh it's your Half brother---my kids looked at them like they had horns coming out of their heads. No he's MY BROTHER. They weren't raised to see that he was different the term half was never used in our house hold.

I hope that Pinky does finally get herself together and maybe this man is a good thing for her but I agree the children should stay with you till she and him can prove that they are fit to care love and nuture these children. You and your husband have been the only good constant in their lives and the courts should see and recognize that. she has been a contants mess up.


I was raised by my parents and didn't know they were racist til I got pregnant with my youngest child. The only child my Mom didn't see born and she didn't meet him til he was 3 months old. My Father on the other hand didn't meet him til he was 2. I told them if they didn't want to know him they wouldn't get to see any of the kids.

I hope that you give him a chance and that he is the path that your daughter needs to be on to get herself together....

thinking of you and yours

Jeannihall - such a shame your parents lost their grandchildren to prejudice. I always told my daughetrs that I did not care if the guy they dated was black, brown, or pink with polka dots as long as he had good values. When my youngest daugher was 13, she asked if she could invite a friend over and I said yes (we often had the gir's friends over as guests). I heard her talking on the phone, telling the girl she could come over, and saying something like "No, but it doesn't matter. Oh, fine, I'll ask her." Then she turned to me and said the girl wanted to be sure I knew she was black and ask if it was still okay for her to come! She'd had a problem in the past where she'd been invited to someone's house and when she got there and the parents saw her color, she'd been told she could not stay! My daughter knew it would not matter to me but her friend wanted to be sure. Wow.

You know how some things you can understand even if it's not something you would do yourself. Like you can understand someone getting so angry they would break something or lash out even if you would not do that yourself. At least you've felt anger so you can understand the feeling without agreeing with the action. Prejudice is something I have absolutely no understanding of because it's something I have never felt, so I have no empathy at all.

I think I'm also leaning toward what Texasgirl said. Pinky has never, ever, even for a day in her life, been without a man. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it seems that when one relationship fades there's always another guy waiting in the wings.

This one seems like a keeper, but of course we haven't met him, and his family hasn't met her, either. I guess we're all jaded -- she's been through so many men and each one is "The One." The problem with this guy is that he fits the same pattern. Older, has a good job and money, a nice house, is going to give her his Lexus as soon as it's out of the shop, buys her cigarettes and helps her pay her rent, yada-yada.

How long will it be before he gets tired of this? We can't figure out what he's doing with her in the first place. If he's as well educated as she claims, he can only be with her either because of you-knpw-what or he's one of those guys who needs a little girl to take care of.

She keeps saying she's going to get a job. But it snows. Then her hand gets a nerve problem. Then this, then that. Who knows?

We're definitely not going to let the kids meet him until there's a ring and a date. They've lived with all of Pinky's guys, and I'm sure it's got them confused...

I can't STAND the way these bios mess up their lives!!!!!

Children don't overthink these types of issue they way us grown folks do, so as long as it's not made out to be a major issue, they should be okay.

I would be concerned about his age because most men don't look forward to raising children after a certain age if they don't have to. And if he did, I would worry about his and Pinky's relationship being the glue that keeps her with her children. What if she gets them, their relationships falls apart, and she backslides on her kids again?

That was my experience with my GD. We were given temporary custody while my step-daughter finsihed parenting classes, supervised visits, etc. She was pregnant and in an inter-racial relationship with a white man (she's black). He was supportive of her getting her daughter back and all of them being a family. I wasn't too concerned about his race but more concerned aobut what would happen if they broke up. Eventually they did break up, and he is now a single parent to their child and my husband and I have our GB back while my step-daughter is living and enjoying the single life. She only had custody of GD (who was 2 at the time, she's 4 now) for five months before she walked away from her, her infant daughter and fiance.

Gigi, you're so right. Pinky's boyfriend was married years ago and raised his kids. They're now in college, so I'm sure he's forgotten what it's like to live with little ones. From not being able to find a pen in a drawer to not being able to find the phone to having paint on the floor -- he can't possibly remember what it's like!

And Pinky gets SO stressed out after her two days of "parenting" I can't imagine what she'd be like if she couldn't leave and go back to dinner with lover-boy and an evening in his quiet house. She's the type of mother who is always in the kids' faces. "What are doing? Pick that up now! Make your bed now! I'm checking on you!" Poor kids probably appreciate the peace and quiet when she leaves.

I can't imagine her surviving as a stay-at-home mom if she marries this guy. And if she works it would mean day care and babysitters -- something the kids haven't known since they were infants.

All around I think it's a terrible idea, and you're also right Gigi that Pinky's entire personhood is wrapped up in this guy. If they break up it would be interesting to see what happens. Either she'll go back to using or find another guy within a week.

AAARRRGGGHHH!

As a fellow step-grandparent, I am curious as to why Pinky's mother did not get the kids.

My GD's maternal grandmother did her have initally (step-daugther gave her to her), but then started blocking visits when my step-daughter met her fiance and started complying with the courts to regain custody. She also has a history of mental illness and a volitile husband so it wasn't the best environment for GD. I was really hoping SD was maturing was ready to be a full time mother. Her fiance even told me how she "cried in his arms" at night because she wanted her baby back so bad. He paid her legal bills hired her a lawyer(she had assault charges from atacking her ex-boyfriend) to ensure she regained custody. I guess if none of that had happened, GD might still be with her maternal grandmother, which wouldn't have been good for GD.