Gay Men's Challenges Support Group
This community is dedicated to the challenges that gay men face, both between the partners in a relationship and from other influences (family, society, etc.). Find support and talk to others who may be facing the same challenges, and share your experience.
Reading about the one year anniversary of the death of the eighth grader Lawrence King and Osteoron's recent post "Has it happened to you?" got me thinking about where is the line between standing up for ourselves as gay people who feel we should have nothing to hide and forcing our orientation, for lack of a better word, on the straight world? I think some of this is probably relative to where you live--I don't know if Lawrence King's overt expression of himself was perhaps in his best interest considering his age and environment.
My experience with straight people--even the ones who claim the most liberal views--is that they support gay rights in the abstract but would really rather not know too much about specific details, if you know what I mean. It seems to make them uncomfortable. I can understand this--I get uncomfortable around straight people going at it in full view of others. I guess I'm puritanical, but I think some things should remain private. But private should not equal closeted either.
I work in education, and sometimes I overhear the young kids I work with interject put downs to each other along the lines of, "Oh, that's so gay." I wonder, should I say something? Is saying something tantamount to coming out? Do I want to open that can of worms? Is this the appropriate environment for that given that the college I work for is pretty conservative? Again, it accepts gayness in the abstract but not in the specific.
Similarly, sometimes I wonder if the big gay pride events every June do more damage than good--they seem to send the message that being gay is about primarily hedonistic pursuits--overly pumped, near naked gym boys bumping and grinding in a summertime bacchanalia--at least this is what the media choose to focus on, so, for better or worse, that's probably what the straight world comes to associate being gay with.
It's a slippery slope, I think, trying to figure out what the ideal balance should be. Sometimes I feel complicit in homophobia by remaining silent, but I don't think being some kind of gay martyr is the most politically sensible option either given my social and professional environment. My experience with other gays where I work--including the obviously gay dept. chair--is not to speak up, to profess one's sexual preferences openly is okay as long as that's all it is--the details need to be kept to oneself.
Anyways, I'd be interested in hearing how others handle this sometimes precarious balancing act.
My experience with straight people--even the ones who claim the most liberal views--is that they support gay rights in the abstract but would really rather not know too much about specific details, if you know what I mean. It seems to make them uncomfortable. I can understand this--I get uncomfortable around straight people going at it in full view of others. I guess I'm puritanical, but I think some things should remain private. But private should not equal closeted either.
I work in education, and sometimes I overhear the young kids I work with interject put downs to each other along the lines of, "Oh, that's so gay." I wonder, should I say something? Is saying something tantamount to coming out? Do I want to open that can of worms? Is this the appropriate environment for that given that the college I work for is pretty conservative? Again, it accepts gayness in the abstract but not in the specific.
Similarly, sometimes I wonder if the big gay pride events every June do more damage than good--they seem to send the message that being gay is about primarily hedonistic pursuits--overly pumped, near naked gym boys bumping and grinding in a summertime bacchanalia--at least this is what the media choose to focus on, so, for better or worse, that's probably what the straight world comes to associate being gay with.
It's a slippery slope, I think, trying to figure out what the ideal balance should be. Sometimes I feel complicit in homophobia by remaining silent, but I don't think being some kind of gay martyr is the most politically sensible option either given my social and professional environment. My experience with other gays where I work--including the obviously gay dept. chair--is not to speak up, to profess one's sexual preferences openly is okay as long as that's all it is--the details need to be kept to oneself.
Anyways, I'd be interested in hearing how others handle this sometimes precarious balancing act.
Due to my crappy wording of my points, it kinda sounded like I had no idea what was going on. I didn't mean entirely that people's rights are up to a vote. I'm aware of the court case (as well as others) that you mentioned. What I was getting at was that Prop 8 was decided in a vote with the people...which is stupid, because the California Supreme Court declared gay marriage bans to be unconstitutional...w/e. This isn't justice.
About gay adoption, I know that gay couples are allowed to adopt children. However, I think it's Arizona (I'm sure you would know which state) has a ban on gay adoption. I'm aware that other states DO allow gay adoption. But from how I hastily wrote everything, it sounded like I had no idea what was going on lol.
About what you said about people's views on gays regardless of how they act at pride parades, I was more just speaking out of my own anger for my parents views on homosexuality. (I'm almost 100% sure that they think all gay people lisp and say "fabulous"... and their views on that are a direct result of the media's stereotyping of homosexuals, and what they see televised when the news tackles pride parades.)
To end, I'm in no way trying to take away freedom of speech and expression of gay people. Those are fundamental rights given to everyone. But, I still think we have a long way to go until we have allllllll the rights given to everyone, and in my opinion (i don't think either of us will sway the other one lol), we need to work a little more at acting appropriately (sexual displays in public) so we're in general more accepted by everyone.
I don't care about being accepted. Some people accept me, some don't and I don't care either way which side of the fence that someone chooses. Desiring to be accepted by others is going to leave you feeling not so good for the rest of your life as there will always be those who will not accept that some people are gay.
I think that you're making some assumptions about the het community as well. If you truly want their acceptance, stop being gay, don't have sex with men, marry and have children.
After reading your response, I am grateful that I don't want or need acceptance from anyone.
In a very general sense, many people are uncomfortable with what they have not seen or head of before. Over time it becomes difficult for people to have to accept there are things they don't understand. Therefore, they make up all kinds of excuses to try to maintain control, by making the unknown into monsters, alienating the unknown, condemning the unknown, hoping that the unknown would lose ground and go away.
People are also naturally inclined to protect their own images and self interests by finding others whom they believe are inferior, in whatever measurement.
That's why I think gay men and lesbians have to be visible and stand up for us. We are not monsters. We have equal capacities to learn, to achieve, and to contribute to the society. In certain areas I would even argue our community have more to offer than the heterosexuals (like creative fields, but this would be a totally different discussion). Over a long period of time, people begin to realize as a collective group, the gay community is really not at all that different than the straight community in many aspects. But because our old system was designed for straight people, the legal system will be have to be challenged to re-define our legal rights, simply because it's becoming more and more clear gay people deserve the same rights as straight people.
When we feel alone, it would seem to make sense to call for a strategy to gain support from the majority, simply because we are used to this system. We tend to live by the majority rule in our thinking. For some of us, it's our tendency to want to be part of the ruling majority because it appears to be safer to be part of the majority; it seems like one would "automatically" gain more support by being part of the majority.
And there are people who don't have the desire to be the majority. As long as their basic safety is covered--can find a job to work to pay for shelter and food, knowing that their basic human rights are all there, it's fine to be part of the numerical minority.
There are also people who thrive on being the minority, to be very different than others. Rebellious or not in terms of their intention, we are in a society where we are allowed with a certain degree of freedom to be what we want.
We will forever be judged by others. I agree that the core of the attacks against gay people will always be there, regardless of how gay people present themselves in the society. The attackers will always find a way to criticize us, to say we are "abnormal," "sick," "bad for society and for our children," and so on. My simple thinking is: they have no gut or intelligence to figure out how to accept a changing world that includes many different kinds of beings. They have only one set of thinking and skills to deal with one type of people. They refuse to deal with changes, for they don't know how.
Again, it takes a lot of encourage and intelligence to deal with the unknown. Not everyone is ready for that. Certainly not everyone is empowered to deal with that.
It's a long response, but one more thing I wanted to bring up concerns internalized homophobia. As a gay man, I was brought up based on what I learned from the society and people around--teachers, family, friends, media, to name a few. The first time I was told I had to face my own internalized homophobia was when I said to someone I did not think it would be a good idea for a gay couple to have/adopt kids because it would not be fair for the kids to have to be put in this kind of position to have to face a lot of social negativity. It was pointed out to me right away that my belief and view was heavily affected by my own perspective of what a "normal family should look like." If I believe that I, as a gay man, could be gay and a "normal" person at the same time, there is absolutely no reason not to believe that kids with gay parents would not be "normal families."
Since then, I have learned to examine social norms more carefully. I know that other people have different degrees of acceptance of what is normal to them, but their ideas remain their ideas. Their ideas don't speak to mine. I have to find my own understanding for myself. I have come to see that whatever we do at gay pride, it's our pride. I would do my gay pride my way, and others will do it their way. Others can judge us when they see something they are afraid of, but that their issues and standards.
But going back to what Juan originally posted, it remains an individual quest for us to figure out how comfortable we are in expressing our identity. In the ideal world, we should express our identity freely; it's simply not 100% safe at all times to do so right now, especially if some of us tend to want the social harmony.
I don't feel alone. I belong to the gay community.
I don't feel embarrassed or ashamed. I am proud of who I am.
I don't care about the acceptance of others or my "image". There is nothing wrong with me or who I am.
I don't care about the judgments of others, that is their problem in their life.
I am not afraid of the unknown.
I have nothing to feel uncomfortable about.
As to internalized homophobia, the only thing that matters is that I accept who I am. The problem of course, is if you don't accept yourself, why should anyone?
You do have my sympathy on this issue. Not everyone comes through that issue with their emotional well being intact.
Unfortunately, I don't recognize your authority to determine what is acceptable behaviour for those of us who do accept ourselves for who we are.
Not caring about the judgments of others--even those whom we don't normally care to be judged by or associate with--is seen by some psychologists as evidence of sociopathology. It also sounds like bravado.
I'm saying that if we act more appropriately in public, maybe people won't have the negative mindset about homosexuals as they do. You've made it annoyingly clear that you don't care if you're accepted, but others DO. And as of now, marriage has been banned for gay people in California and gay adoption has been banned in Arizona. BOTH were decided on votes by the people. The people (MOST are not gay) have their reasons for why they don't want gay people to adopt or marry. Granted there are many factors, there ARE people out there who think that homosexuals will simply make bad parents because of the stereotypes; stereotypes that some people very well showcase in pride parades. Look, whatever, have all the pride you want, and express it however you want, but choose to express it in a way that couldn't potentially be harmful to our progression in getting equal rights awarded to us.
NOW, let me move on to the personal attack that you threw at me! SORRRRY that I want my PARENTS to accept me! Don't EVER say that I'm gonna be lonely cause I "desire" to be accepted. Umm, you don't know me, so don't ever say I'll be lonely in my "quest" for acceptance. That's ridiculous; MOST people want acceptance from their parents.
A) Being gay is NOT new. Ever since Leviticus was written people have used it as GOD'S validation to keep us down.
B) Do you REALLY think that returning to the 50's era of living hidden away in the closet and "appropriate behavior" will ever return ANYTHING but terminal ignorance? It wasn't until we started to stand up for what is rightfully ours (read...a constitutional right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness) that ANY progress has been made (thanks to Harvey Milk and the Queens involved in the Stonewall riots)
Get out and shake it! Wave your flag! Drag each other around in leashes and collars if that's what it takes...Come out Come out Wherever you are! The Str8 and prudish world is way too tangled in it's own dirty laundry to decide what is appropriate for ME.
I'm appalled at the suggestion that it is preferable to conceal one's identity out of "consideration" for someone else's bias. Thank God we have people with enough integrity to stand up and BE counted in the parades and celebrate their identity -- even push boundaries a little wider so some of those "other" people might be accepted too!
Many comments in this thread appear to suggest homosexuals must still seek permission from heterosexuals. The flaw is in the ignorance of those who will not (and perhaps in cases of true inferiority) cannot except what simply is. That Proposition 8 was even considered legitimate is preposterous; it is unconstitutional and indecent to legislate inequality. The fault of that heinous decision does not lie with the victims but with the selfish, homophobic (both gay and straight ) twits who actually found something acceptable in punishing people for their very existence.
By the way, what's with all the attacks? Like, guypaul, I'm FIFTEEN, it's not that I'm trying to feel less vulnerable about "concealing my sexuality", it's the fact that I don't have a car, or a job, or funds to rely on if my parents throw me out...
Your whole thing about my "implied" suggestion that homosexuals must seek heterosexual permission isn't even what I said. I said that they sometimes have the power to vote on our rights, so I'm not saying we ask their permission; I'm saying we dispel the generalizations and stereotypes that could sway their votes against us.
And if you have a different opinion, whatever. I tried to end this a loooong time ago with osteoron (in the message that i filled with a bunch of fake "lol's")...but he kept talking.
So, this was just my opinion....nothing else. So uh, let's calm down, okay?
O! But thanks to Juan for, you know, being the only one to NOT freak out on me.
At 15 you're liable to take everything personally.* You are posting on a public board, making statements that criticize the behavior of an entire group of people, yet you take offense when people disagree? Ironically, my comments were a response to the individual who started this thread, and not to you specifically.
You're coming into this arena with the road already paved for you, but it didn't start out that way. Research the events of the Stonewall bar in June of 1969 that a commemorated at these parades you find so distasteful. You will learn that you owe even your right to post that you are gay on a public site to that same group your find fault with today. Talk about gratitude.
*I don't look at each individual's profile before I respond in this forum, but if you feel you need special treatment as an adolescent, I believe there is a group on DS designed just for the teens.
1, I'm not taking this personally. I was making the point that I kind of HAVE to "conceal my sexuality" at this point.
2. I'm not criticizing anybody. As I said before, I just stated my opinion.
3. I'm not taking offense that people are disagreeing with me. You have your opinions; i have mine. My last post was an attempt to END this "fight"; it wasn't me taking offense.
4. Don't talk to me like I'm an idiot. I know about the Stonewall bar, and I thank you for being so obnoxious in suggesting that I have no gratitude.
5. Thank you for being so obnoxious AGAIN, with your little thing about how you think I want "special treatment" cause I'm an adolescent.
Thanks for the invitation to post my picture. While I don't normally need to explain myself, I will say that I don't post my photo as last year I was faced with some rather abusive posts including being called the "redcoat c***sucker". As well, I am in profession which requires boundaries. Since this is a public forum, I choose not to give a segment of the population the opportunity to continue by identifying myself anymore than what the DS allows.
I'm thrilled about your psychological assessment of me, however, I think I have far more expertise in the area than yourself. But it is nice to know that like hets, when faced with someone who differs from you, that you first went to looking to diagnose me as having something wrong with me.
However, in positive self-esteem and self-acceptance, the opinion of others ranks relatively low. I can survive the day knowing that some people accept me and that some people don't.
While the "that's so gay" is an insipid, casual cliche...I feel having it thrown around so casually only invites a level of harassment (physical or otherwise) that could do damage to a young person. This stuff gets internalized by many (gay or str8) and it starts an internal dialogue where many end up convinced they are "horrible" because they get singled out for being different. The damage sometimes doesn't manifest until much later in life. What is your schools policy on bullying?
Seth,
I don't want to be glib or marginalize you because of your age...But as a product of the public school system myself...It ain't the friendliest or most supportive environment. In my experience it was a daily struggle to avoid the a**-holes and just get through the day. ANY piece of personal information was subject to ridicule - so I hear where you are coming from with wanting to not draw attention to yourself. Don't let anyone intimidate you in YOUR opinion. Consider that in time your opinions will also change. I know mine have. Give others at least a chance to express theirs and try to empathize. If you differ, you might call it a fight...but that really is the whole point of a discussion.
If you are looking to add you voice to a unanimous song...I might suggest your local Church Choir.