Gay Men's Challenges Support Group
This community is dedicated to the challenges that gay men face, both between the partners in a relationship and from other influences (family, society, etc.). Find support and talk to others who may be facing the same challenges, and share your experience.
Reading about the one year anniversary of the death of the eighth grader Lawrence King and Osteoron's recent post "Has it happened to you?" got me thinking about where is the line between standing up for ourselves as gay people who feel we should have nothing to hide and forcing our orientation, for lack of a better word, on the straight world? I think some of this is probably relative to where you live--I don't know if Lawrence King's overt expression of himself was perhaps in his best interest considering his age and environment.
My experience with straight people--even the ones who claim the most liberal views--is that they support gay rights in the abstract but would really rather not know too much about specific details, if you know what I mean. It seems to make them uncomfortable. I can understand this--I get uncomfortable around straight people going at it in full view of others. I guess I'm puritanical, but I think some things should remain private. But private should not equal closeted either.
I work in education, and sometimes I overhear the young kids I work with interject put downs to each other along the lines of, "Oh, that's so gay." I wonder, should I say something? Is saying something tantamount to coming out? Do I want to open that can of worms? Is this the appropriate environment for that given that the college I work for is pretty conservative? Again, it accepts gayness in the abstract but not in the specific.
Similarly, sometimes I wonder if the big gay pride events every June do more damage than good--they seem to send the message that being gay is about primarily hedonistic pursuits--overly pumped, near naked gym boys bumping and grinding in a summertime bacchanalia--at least this is what the media choose to focus on, so, for better or worse, that's probably what the straight world comes to associate being gay with.
It's a slippery slope, I think, trying to figure out what the ideal balance should be. Sometimes I feel complicit in homophobia by remaining silent, but I don't think being some kind of gay martyr is the most politically sensible option either given my social and professional environment. My experience with other gays where I work--including the obviously gay dept. chair--is not to speak up, to profess one's sexual preferences openly is okay as long as that's all it is--the details need to be kept to oneself.
Anyways, I'd be interested in hearing how others handle this sometimes precarious balancing act.
My experience with straight people--even the ones who claim the most liberal views--is that they support gay rights in the abstract but would really rather not know too much about specific details, if you know what I mean. It seems to make them uncomfortable. I can understand this--I get uncomfortable around straight people going at it in full view of others. I guess I'm puritanical, but I think some things should remain private. But private should not equal closeted either.
I work in education, and sometimes I overhear the young kids I work with interject put downs to each other along the lines of, "Oh, that's so gay." I wonder, should I say something? Is saying something tantamount to coming out? Do I want to open that can of worms? Is this the appropriate environment for that given that the college I work for is pretty conservative? Again, it accepts gayness in the abstract but not in the specific.
Similarly, sometimes I wonder if the big gay pride events every June do more damage than good--they seem to send the message that being gay is about primarily hedonistic pursuits--overly pumped, near naked gym boys bumping and grinding in a summertime bacchanalia--at least this is what the media choose to focus on, so, for better or worse, that's probably what the straight world comes to associate being gay with.
It's a slippery slope, I think, trying to figure out what the ideal balance should be. Sometimes I feel complicit in homophobia by remaining silent, but I don't think being some kind of gay martyr is the most politically sensible option either given my social and professional environment. My experience with other gays where I work--including the obviously gay dept. chair--is not to speak up, to profess one's sexual preferences openly is okay as long as that's all it is--the details need to be kept to oneself.
Anyways, I'd be interested in hearing how others handle this sometimes precarious balancing act.
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theatre and I are there already. I'm having a very berry tea with crackers, cheese and cherry tomatoes and she's having a joint with some beer and we're both on really comfy recliners on thick pile carpet. we need some help with the decor if anyone is around??
And there are different ways to stand up for ourselves. A few years ago, I decided that there must be something "kind of gay" about me that I should express it freely to others. I wanted to do that because I wanted people to know I was gay and therefore they should watch what they were saying in front of me. I did not want to put myself in the position where I had to confront them when they said something biased against gay people. This strategy appears to work sometimes, when I sense that people hold back or at least think twice when they are making comments about gay people. Still, I know that they are holding back, and it doesn't necessarily mean they respect gay people. They, like me, just want to avoid direct confrontation.
I really don't know how much I want to push forward with my gay identity and gay rights. I have been choosing to do it in a somewhat quiet way, to make around me understand that I am gay and I am no different than straight people, but I do it in a way that builds on understanding over time. I don't feel comfortable to confront people right off the bet whenever I hear them say something bad about gay people. I am upset and offended when I hear comments like that, but I have not developed a good strategy to confront these people directly.
Any suggestions?
You also mentioned how pride parades may be doing more harm than good, and I couldnt agree with you more. Look, Im all for gay pride and whatever, but theres no need for people to be so obnoxious about it. Like Were here! Were queer! Get used to it!okay. They need to calm down. And with how theyre acting and with what theyre wearing, thats not something people WANT to get used to. No one wants to get used to a couple of men in leather pants and chains. No one wants to get used to shirtles firefighters and half-naked men dancing down the street. And whats worse is that most people are just stupid, and seeing THAT as the gay pride parade will do anything BUT make them more accepting of gays. Why are these parades promoting and proving the sterotypes???? Like, Im gay, but uhIm not really all that crazy about rainbows. Stop waving the frickin flags!
Now, a TRUE gay pride parade would look something like this; people dressed in normal clothing, wearing ALL their clothing, and NOT singing Queen songs. However, the gay pride parades were stuck with showcase the eccentric lives of a very small percentage of the gay community. Its unfortunate, because the people doing this are just making it harder for the rest of us.
I remember the first PRIDE parades that I attended with less than 2,000 people. These days, there are upwards of 1 million in attendance in Toronto. I refuse to go backwards. They'll learn to deal with feminine men and masculine women.
I don't fault anyone for their own perspective on these types of issues, because they do pose a risk to people and it can also push the comfort boundaries of those who are not entirely comfortable with their identity and don't want to be embarrassed by being different.
In recent years, I had no problem stating that my coworkers where I was working were homophobic while management attended the meeting. There was a cost to that public statement, but it was a lot better than sitting silent about an issue that is tied to basic human rights.
I don't consider it my responsibility to judge the actions of others. I have no clue as to what you consider lewd or indecent.
I have nothing to be embarrassed about, so I am completely fine with public displays of affection and sexuality. Nor would I ask others not to be themselves because some reporter or member of the community might be offended.
Freedom of speech and freedom of expression demands it. Wanting equality rights but imposing censorship on others is just hypocritical in my view.
Censoring others is something that I just prefer not to engage in.
For the better part of 4 decades, the heterosexual community has been telling me what I should and shouldn't do. I don't plan on joining the ranks of telling my fellow gays what they should be doing. And if there is the occasional act that I find objectionable, I can avoid it or avoid from participating in it.
I accept that your opinion differs. But I do have the ability of not trying to control how others live their lives.
Implied sexual acts -- woohoo -- good for them. It is possible that I might have done a bump and grind along the way. I hope you'll forgive me for being me.
Freedom of expression includes sexuality and the fundamental basis of a democracy is that we only censor others where there is a clear harm to another. There is nothing harmful in a PRIDE parade. In fact, I would argue it is quite beneficial to individuals, the local community and humanity.
Just my 4 cents (inflation and all).
In the real world, I think there are limits to freedom of expression and speech. You can't really say or do anything you want and expect it not to make an impact, postive or negative, on your environs. To do so without regard is either naive or reckless in my opinion. (Of course, there are calculated acts done to make a point in a clearly marked political forum, but I'm not talking about that here.) Would you have a problem with two gay guys engaging in full-on anal sex in view of children across the street? I hope you would. That's what I meant in my original post by the straight people remark--I've seen straight people feeling each other up in public, plunging their tongues down each other's throats, and I just want to say, "Do I really have to see this? Can't they get a room somewhere? What are they, exhibitionists?"
I think invoking the word censorship is a convenient way of skirting the issue here and, forgive me if this offends, perhaps allowing oneself to somehow feel morally superior or more enlightened or more liberated from oppressive puritan standards than the rest of us or something. We're not talking about stifling different points of view--I'm all for different perspectives and works of art or political opinions that challenge the status quo. However, this does not give one a valid excuse to be insensitive to others in different social situations and to interpret freedom of expression as I'm going to tell you more about myself than you care to know in the name of some cause you may not care about involving what two or more people do as consenting adults behind closed doors. I work with people from the Middle East who are by and large VERY conservative, so I would never bring up gay issues out of respect to them. If they want to know something, I will tell them, but I'm not going to deliberately make them uncomfortable. Furthermore, in a workplace situation they would clearly have grounds for harassment.
I fully support your right to engage in logical fallacies such as 'the slippery slope' and 'redactio absurdum' arguments.
My point remains the same no matter how ridiculous an example that anyone can come up.
I am making a choice -- and that is not to do what heterosexuals have done to me. To be specific, I make the choice not to engage in imposing my will, my morality and my ethics on others. In a democracy, it is incumbent on you to demonstrate the harm before we censor the freedom of speech or freedom of expression of another. Until a clear and convincing case of harm is made -- may the anal sex at PRIDE continue.
Protecting and brainwashing children is the role of the parents. I prefer that you not put the responsibility for parenting someone else's children on me. They are not my children. Those parents are free not to bring their children to PRIDE, monitor their news and TV watching and otherwise supervise their children. That many parents are lazy and abrogate their responsiblities and expect the rest of society to do their job is their problem.
Anal sex -- woohoo!
You said a few posts ago that the straight community has been telling you (and other gays) what they can and cannot do. Yeah, well, it's unfortunate but, they're stillllll doing that. We are a very outnumbered group and i personally think it's a good thing to have most of the heterosexuals as allies. We shouldn't be acting all rebellious (I dunno, that's just the vibe i get from your posts. sorry, no offense) because straight people, as of now, run our lives, and until we get most of them to change their minds about us, that's the way it's always gonna be. We are doing NOTHING to further ourselves in society by dancing down the streets in leather-bondage clothing, and making out with random people who they don't even know at these parades, because NO ONE will get a good impression of us that way. And I don't know about you, but I sure as Hell don't want people thinking that I'm into any of that leather stuff (cause I'm not) or that I'm anything but monogamous (cause I'll totally be monogamous once I find somebody).
However, there are people at these parades who don't seem to get that we need to PROGRESS in the world, and they're basically labeling gays by displaying alllll the stereotypes that are connected with us.
The chant "We're here! We're queer! Get used to it!" is by far the WORST thing we could be saying! Like seriously, we expect straight people to get used to a shirtless firefighter grinding down the street with a sailor wearing nothing but a hat and boxer-briefs???? That's not going to win any of us votes with the heteros.
Straight people are the deciding vote in our lives and we can't keep delaying ourselves from moving up in society. Yes, WE are doing this to ourselves. WE are "proving" the stereotypes that give heterosexuals their views on us. WE need to change those views in order to get ANYTHING done around here! For instance, Proposition 8 anybody? Ummm, we lost that! Now, I'm not saying that the people attending pride parades made that happen, but you can't say that no one's vote was swayed because of it.
Look at Arizona, the second state to ban gay ADOPTION! Again, pride parades didn't do that, but there were definitely people voting who had the mindset of "They're gross and they shouldn't have the right to raise children."
Yeah, that's why WE need to change people's opinions. Once we do that, we've already won half the battle. We need people to stop thinking of us as a strange and inferior group of people, and one way to do that is to stopppp making people thinkkkk thattttt by reaffirming their opinions.
You said " I have nothing to be embarrassed about, so I am completely fine with public displays of affection and sexuality." I'm not talking about embarrassment; I'm talking about the fact that we need to progress in society, and people's opinions on us will play a massive role in that.
So yes, I AM saying that pride parades need to be toned down. Because, they're making it harder for ALL OF US whose eyes are opened to what we're doing to ourselves. ONCE we have the acceptance of the people, THEN do whatever the hell you want. UNTIL then, people shouldn't be keeping us stuck, essentially, in the world people THINK we live in because of what they see or hear about at pride parades.
Now, MAYBE if these parades weren't as "out there" as they are, it would be easier for people to change their minds about homosexuals. MAYBE if these parades weren't as eccentric as they are, it would have been easier to win Prop 8. MAYBE if these parades didn't showcase people who were very sexual and display their sexuality in strange ways, I wouldn't have panic attacks at the mere THOUGHT of coming out to my parents, because I know their opinions. MAYBE if these parade-goers didn't prove the stereotypes, the phrase "assless-chaps" wouldn't come out of my parents mouth when they discuss/bash gays.
I see where the problem lies.
I don't care what the straight community thinks -- this is a fundamental difference between us -- they aren't essential to my life, or my rights. Again, I don't live my life to suit them, their homophobia, or anything else for that matter.
In Canada, I have had same sex rights for a decade or longer and the right to marry. I don't rely on the straight community for this and any vote that they might have. So I don't need to cater or pander to the lot of them. We have used the courts here to have our guaranteed rights enforced -- and our efforts have been largely successful.
You are free to use whatever legal or political strategy that you chose where you live.
The same problem exists though. Advocating for equal rights for gays is hypocritical when anyone infringes on the the freedom of speech and freedom of expression of gays. Asking people to "tone down" is an infringement on the rights of others. I refuse to participate in infringing on the rights of gays.
In the political strategy that you discussed, you inadvertently become exactly like the straight community who infringes on our rights.
I might suggest looking at the cases that have won Equality Rights in Canada and other cases in other countries as a means to get your rights enforced.
You can certainly use that strategy, but I think it is a flawed one. I'm glad that we didn't follow it here.
Hot firemen...woohoo.
As for stereotypes, some of them are true and I have no desire to silence people and who they are because some hets might be offended. Sucks to be them. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression entitles them to be themselves. Which is the same argument that gays make -- we have the right to be who we are and treated fairly and equally under the law.
In fact, there are a number of ways that you could sue your state right now, regardless of what hets think to ensure that your rights keep moving along.
Hot firemen... are great in any parade.
I'm not saying that gay people need to live their lives to suit straight people. I'm saying that, by toning things down, we are simply making it easier on ourselves; we can more easily move up on the ladder of society.
You say that this "infringes" the rights of gay people by making them tone things down. Umm...no. What rights are being infringed? Freedom of speech and expression? ...that's it. By toning things down, we can actually obtain MORE rights. Gay marriage is not yet a right of ours. Show society that we're not truly like how we act at pride parades, maybe we'll get that right. You say straight people aren't essential to gay rights...actually, they're the deciding element in our rights. They vote on our rights. They're VERY essential.
In this country, the rights of people are decided upon by the people. But i'm sure you know that. So, I'm saying that people don't care about technicalities of people's rights; if they think gay marriage is wrong, or gay people in general are wrong, they'll vote against their rights.
Gay adoption. What straight person is going to allow a gay couple, who marches in pride parades showing blatant displays of sexual lust to legally raise a child? (However ridiculous it may sound, there are straight people who assume gay people are ALWAYS like that...frankly, people are stupid in general, and they're easily swayed by what they see.)
I want to have these rights; i DON'T want anything stopping them from being ensured. And i sure as hell don't want the people fighting for these rights to be the same people who are slowing them down from happening.
You are factually inaccurate about the US. The right for black Americans to marry white Americans was decided by the Supreme Court in Loving v. Virginia. It was not based on the voting of others. In other words, the rights of individuals is not limited to the voting citizens, but also has redress in the State and Federal Courts.
Marriage rights (for hets)_ stem from common law and SCOTUS decisions -- not the voting citizens and specific legislation.
The SCOTUS case was based largely on the 14th Amendment and the Equality clause. It was also the California State Supreme Court that struck down discriminatory laws that affected gays in 2008. Again, your perception that voters are essential is false.
That you choose to believe that you cannot access the courts to enforce your rights, is your choice, but it is untrue.
You are further mistaken on adoption. Some states do allow gay adoption and again, it is the gay community locally that refuses to use the courts to ensure that the Due Process, Equal Protection Clauses and the Full Faith and Credit Clause are not being enforced under the US Constitution.
And I believe you are mistaken in your basic premise. There is a significant portion of people who will oppose gay rights regardless of what is portrayed in any PRIDE event.
"Making them tone things down" is exactly an infringement of someone else's rights. Perhaps you are battle weary and just so used to having your rights violated that you fail to see that this is violation of First Amendment rights.
There is specific language in several SCOTUS decisions that allow legal challenges for the US based on gender discrimination which would include gay marriage, adoption rights and other aspects of law. There are actually many strategies available that have nothing to do with the voting public and rest squarely with Constitutional rights.
As well, there are religious grounds that several churches can challenge the unconstitutionality that exists in the US at this time.
I'm sure that if you forced people to behave the way that you want, that Rush Limbaugh and millions of others will suddenly start advocating and voting for your gay rights. (tongue in check)