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Independent2014
I will probably be the only person on here who disagrees with the notion that there is big money in the registry. To spell that out a little more I believe there is a lot of money being spent on the registry. However, I do not believe any one player is gaining enough money from it to make it financially relevant.
Now if you are saying there is big money on private prisons I wholeheartedly agree. Private prisons make me sick. However in private prisons if they had a choice I don't think even they would want more sex offenders in their prisons. Sex offenders are much harder to manage in prison because of all the protective custody. Why would a private prison want to pay more to protect RSOs from other criminals and still get paid the same amount of money from the state? Truly we are pariahs when even the private prisons don't really want us.
Let's look at the other players of the registry and ask what individual players are "gaining all this big money"?
1. Polygraphers: I'm sure they are making a comfortable living. I asked my polygraphers when I was going through probation how many “clients” they saw a week. They told me usually like 2 or 3 non-correction clients a week and the rest is all from probation and parole. The main guy I went to only worked part time as a retirement gig, and he saw maybe 10 people a week. Still if you think about the cost of polygraphs, this is a pretty good retirement job. So yes, polygraphers are making a cushy living not going to argue that, but what power do they have as a group to push policy like this on society? Almost none. Is there a powerful polygrapher lobby on Capital Hill
2. The Corrections Department: This includes probation, parole, state prisons.
According the Bureau of Justice Statistics, State prisons had an estimated 1,314,900 inmates at the end of 2013, only 160,900 or 12.23% were in there for rape of sexual assault. The Bureau of Justice Statistics also tracks parole and probation by crime, there were 3,910,600 on probation in 2013, of which 3% or 117,318 probationers were on probation for a sex offense. In 2013 there were 853,200 on probation of which, 10% or 85,320. So all totaled there are 6,078,700 people in the correction system of which only 5.9% or 363,448 people are in for sexual offenses.
Now is 363,448 a lot of people? Yes, that is a lot of people in the system right now for sex crimes. However if sex offenders and sex crimes were really driving big money to the states wouldn’t you expect there to be more of the total corrections system than just 5.9%? I would definitely think that number would be higher, in a way I am kind of surprised it is so low in comparison to how often I am bombarded by sex crimes in the media. I would love to see a study done where random people on the street are asked what they think the people in prison and on probation/parole are on there for based on percentages. That would tell us how influential the media really is in shaping our reality.
3. Fees registrants pay: If you have been through probation or parole or have ever been on the registry you know all about the fees we have to pay for the state to “manage” us. I know it may seem like a lot of money that we have to fork over for the state to do effectively nothing, but in the long run it really is not that much money when you are talking about a large bureaucracy known as our government.
Let’s say that every person on the registry has to pay 100 a year for “registry upkeep and supervision costs”. Using a rough estimate of 800,000 registrants, that is 80 million dollars a year. I hate to be crass here, but when it comes to a bureaucracy, you cannot even wipe your gluteus maximus for 80 million dollars. The government is spending way more a year in just labor costs than this!
You know why there are only 17 states that are SORNA compliant? Because the government has not made it worthwhile for states to join. The Federal Government has threatened states by saying if they are not SORNA compliant they will lose 10% of their Byrne grant for law enforcement, and 33 states have said it’s not worth it!
http://www.justicepolicy.org/images/upload/08-08_fac_sornacosts_jj.pdf
It does not seem to me that states are rolling around in the dough when it comes to sex offenders. They are turning down more money because it actually costs them more to be compliant.
Let’s also assume that of the approximately 200,000 people on probation and parole that each one of them pays a monthly “supervision fee” of $50. Now not everyone is going to be able to afford that because they are homeless or poor, but let’s assume for the sake of argument that everyone can and does pay every month. That is 120 million a year. Again, you cannot wipe your gluteus maximus in big government with 120 million dollars.
4. The costs states pay outside agencies to handle the registry:
The state of Ohio is paying an independent company 50,000 a year to manage their registry. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that every state is paying 50,000 a year for a company to manage their registry (they aren’t but let’s assume), that would be 2.5 million dollars.
5. Individual grants: Yes the Federal government will give out grants to help stop the flavor of the week crimes, just look at the task forces in central Florida. But again no one is getting rich off of this and moreover they are going where the politicians are directing them to go. If anyone is at fault here it is the politicians, a good majority of our politicians have been to law school and should know better and how to think critically.
6. Treatment providers: Yes do they get money from sex offenders, and can determine how long they have to stay in treatment. This is a probably a conflict of interest in some scenarios, I can see that and understand how some people here would say this is for monetary reasons. However, it is not as if these treatment providers will be out of clients any time soon. I would answer the conflict of interest question by also saying that If they “graduate” people and they are successful the treatment providers may also be more likely to get more clients from corrections. You also do not see treatment providers as a lobbying group.
7. Victim’s advocate groups: I have said it once and I will say it again, these groups are not out for money. I have not ran across a single victim advocate group that got into it to make money. They got into it because they either know someone who was abused or were abused themselves. They are not in it to make a quick buck, most believe deep down that they are doing the right thing to try and stop what happened to them from happening to others.
Conclusion:
In the grand scheme of things, 200 million dollars is a drop in the bucket for the government and all other individual players are not getting anywhere near that amount. This insistence that the registry is somehow making other people rich is a fairy tale in my opinion.
Now if you are saying there is big money on private prisons I wholeheartedly agree. Private prisons make me sick. However in private prisons if they had a choice I don't think even they would want more sex offenders in their prisons. Sex offenders are much harder to manage in prison because of all the protective custody. Why would a private prison want to pay more to protect RSOs from other criminals and still get paid the same amount of money from the state? Truly we are pariahs when even the private prisons don't really want us.
Let's look at the other players of the registry and ask what individual players are "gaining all this big money"?
1. Polygraphers: I'm sure they are making a comfortable living. I asked my polygraphers when I was going through probation how many “clients” they saw a week. They told me usually like 2 or 3 non-correction clients a week and the rest is all from probation and parole. The main guy I went to only worked part time as a retirement gig, and he saw maybe 10 people a week. Still if you think about the cost of polygraphs, this is a pretty good retirement job. So yes, polygraphers are making a cushy living not going to argue that, but what power do they have as a group to push policy like this on society? Almost none. Is there a powerful polygrapher lobby on Capital Hill
2. The Corrections Department: This includes probation, parole, state prisons.
According the Bureau of Justice Statistics, State prisons had an estimated 1,314,900 inmates at the end of 2013, only 160,900 or 12.23% were in there for rape of sexual assault. The Bureau of Justice Statistics also tracks parole and probation by crime, there were 3,910,600 on probation in 2013, of which 3% or 117,318 probationers were on probation for a sex offense. In 2013 there were 853,200 on probation of which, 10% or 85,320. So all totaled there are 6,078,700 people in the correction system of which only 5.9% or 363,448 people are in for sexual offenses.
Now is 363,448 a lot of people? Yes, that is a lot of people in the system right now for sex crimes. However if sex offenders and sex crimes were really driving big money to the states wouldn’t you expect there to be more of the total corrections system than just 5.9%? I would definitely think that number would be higher, in a way I am kind of surprised it is so low in comparison to how often I am bombarded by sex crimes in the media. I would love to see a study done where random people on the street are asked what they think the people in prison and on probation/parole are on there for based on percentages. That would tell us how influential the media really is in shaping our reality.
3. Fees registrants pay: If you have been through probation or parole or have ever been on the registry you know all about the fees we have to pay for the state to “manage” us. I know it may seem like a lot of money that we have to fork over for the state to do effectively nothing, but in the long run it really is not that much money when you are talking about a large bureaucracy known as our government.
Let’s say that every person on the registry has to pay 100 a year for “registry upkeep and supervision costs”. Using a rough estimate of 800,000 registrants, that is 80 million dollars a year. I hate to be crass here, but when it comes to a bureaucracy, you cannot even wipe your gluteus maximus for 80 million dollars. The government is spending way more a year in just labor costs than this!
You know why there are only 17 states that are SORNA compliant? Because the government has not made it worthwhile for states to join. The Federal Government has threatened states by saying if they are not SORNA compliant they will lose 10% of their Byrne grant for law enforcement, and 33 states have said it’s not worth it!
http://www.justicepolicy.org/images/upload/08-08_fac_sornacosts_jj.pdf
It does not seem to me that states are rolling around in the dough when it comes to sex offenders. They are turning down more money because it actually costs them more to be compliant.
Let’s also assume that of the approximately 200,000 people on probation and parole that each one of them pays a monthly “supervision fee” of $50. Now not everyone is going to be able to afford that because they are homeless or poor, but let’s assume for the sake of argument that everyone can and does pay every month. That is 120 million a year. Again, you cannot wipe your gluteus maximus in big government with 120 million dollars.
4. The costs states pay outside agencies to handle the registry:
The state of Ohio is paying an independent company 50,000 a year to manage their registry. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that every state is paying 50,000 a year for a company to manage their registry (they aren’t but let’s assume), that would be 2.5 million dollars.
5. Individual grants: Yes the Federal government will give out grants to help stop the flavor of the week crimes, just look at the task forces in central Florida. But again no one is getting rich off of this and moreover they are going where the politicians are directing them to go. If anyone is at fault here it is the politicians, a good majority of our politicians have been to law school and should know better and how to think critically.
6. Treatment providers: Yes do they get money from sex offenders, and can determine how long they have to stay in treatment. This is a probably a conflict of interest in some scenarios, I can see that and understand how some people here would say this is for monetary reasons. However, it is not as if these treatment providers will be out of clients any time soon. I would answer the conflict of interest question by also saying that If they “graduate” people and they are successful the treatment providers may also be more likely to get more clients from corrections. You also do not see treatment providers as a lobbying group.
7. Victim’s advocate groups: I have said it once and I will say it again, these groups are not out for money. I have not ran across a single victim advocate group that got into it to make money. They got into it because they either know someone who was abused or were abused themselves. They are not in it to make a quick buck, most believe deep down that they are doing the right thing to try and stop what happened to them from happening to others.
Conclusion:
In the grand scheme of things, 200 million dollars is a drop in the bucket for the government and all other individual players are not getting anywhere near that amount. This insistence that the registry is somehow making other people rich is a fairy tale in my opinion.
These laws also get politicians elected. .
And, which is I think the biggest thing.. it keeps the boot on the neck of the poor or middle class people, which is always a plus for politicians. Keeping those people fighting for their lives has always been one of the reasons why there is so much monetary inequality.
200 million dollars is nothing when compared to the operations costs of running even a small portion of the government designed to keep sex offenders "in-line".
You said Nak, "it keeps the boot on the neck of people in the poor and middle class." Sex offenses are a crime that do not have a class, it transcends all classes. A rich sex offender is more likely to get probation then go to jail because of being able to hire a good legal team, but they are still under the same crap we all are.
How many sex offenders do you think there are in relation to the total population? Roughly 820,000 offenders and 319.8 million people in the U.S., that means that sex offenders are 0.256% of the population.
You said, "These laws also get politicians elected" YES they do! That is my whole point of this post is to show the money is ancillary to the political gains politicians make on the backs of sex offenders and their families.
The money is truly ancillary, it goes to help pay for the big government programs politicians create to stay elected.
Also, even in states that charge fees, few are paying the fees because we are broke.
I have covered this subject years ago in the article called Big Registry. There are lots of costs that are indirect, such as the registry causing high unemployment and thus more registrants on welfare, the extra crimes that occur as the result of people like Parkhurst, and forth.
There is far more to the overall cost than you have considered. If I had more time I could thoroughly shred your entire premise but if you think there isn't money to be made in the victim industry, then you need to read the tax records of the various victim industry advocates.
You really need to do your research.
My main premise is that people are not getting rich off the registry. The numbers don't mean a whole lot. Even if you added 500k for every state that still isn't "big business". That the majority of what registrants pay goes to keep the big bureaucracy running. I agree 100% that there are a lot of indirect costs of the registry, but they don't go into lining someone's pocket book.
The registry is not being kept alive nor was it created because of money. If you believe otherwise I'd love to see your research.
There is no way to accurately determine the true cost of sex offender laws because the gov't does NOT earmark every dollar as going to a particular place.
For example, the US Marshals are authorized to invest resources towards the investigation and apprehension of those failing to register and suspected of crossing state lines. They participate in numerous "compliance check" operations. They don't have a "budget" just for that function, however so we don't know how much goes into that. How much money does the Marshals get and what do the marshals do besides FTR cases?
To be honest, even my budget articles, written back in 2009 or so, can't accurately portray the total cost. These registry laws are underfunded by the feds but the state pumps money into them, just like they do for welfare, infrastructure, and so on. But the registry gets funded every year no matter what because it is earmarked a priority, at least unofficially.
So Ohio is spending almost $50k monthly for a private registry, yet Ohio is struggling to find the funds for the Brent Spence bridge connecting Cincinnati to Covington, KY. I guess they are going to wait for the Brent Spence bridge to float away to Louisville before they fund a new bridge. Yet, the registry and the police that pester us to register still have full funding.
Don't forget, the feds are living off borrowed money, like most of us, so they're spending money they don't have. Somewhere along the way, people are making money. Offender Watch is making money from their PRIVATE REGISTRY software. GPS makers are making money. We are a small population in which an obscene per-capita amount of money is being spent. I admit it isn't easy to pinpoint to the last penny just how much spending is going on here. Even if overall spending is a "drop in the bucket" in the grand scheme of things, it is a large amount compared to most projects not considered the biggest issues to the government, like health care and defense spending.
It IS a big business to those few who work in the industry. CEOs of NCMEC and other big organizations get a pretty penny to run their groups. Ernie Allen, before he retired, got over $1 million annually. The NCMEC is not as big as people think. They don't even actively search for missing kids. About 90% of their $50 million plus budget is spent on administration costs. That is a "drop in the bucket" compared to overall government spending but $50 million for an operation with such a small number of employees is obscene.
That's a lot to digest and I'm still recovering from my trip to Tallahassee. I've gone from sunburn to freezer burn so I need more rest.
Money has nothing to do with what's happening to us. We would have the registry whether Walsh is getting rich or not. Even if you think money plays a role, you surely have to concede that political gain is a much bigger factor than the overall money involved in the registry.
If you believe money plays a role in keeping the registry alive what examples do you have that show that? Nothing immediately comes to mind that can be shown to be pure monetarily driven.
I have a hard time believing it takes almost $50,000 a month to keep a website afloat no matter what is on it, so I'm sure Offender Watch is scoring a profit from Ohio. The state obviously has the money for it or they wouldn't pay for it.
Would we still have the registry without the money? I think money played a role in how states ultimately decided to put the registry info out there. Internet disclosure isn't that costly once the initial software is up and running but there are other factors like when and how they notify the community.
This is a bit of an old article but it is a great example of how money plays into the registry laws:
http://www.orlandoweekly.com/orlando/ghosts-in-the-machine/Content?oid=2253952
Florida adds more categories people to their registries than anyone else. Are you DEAD? If so, and you're in FloriDUh, you're STILL on the registry.
"Besides portraying Florida as crawling with offenders, the overall figure can help determine how much money Florida gets to comply with registry laws. Under the Jacob Wetterling Act, one of the first sex-offender registry laws, the U.S. Department of Justice's Sex Offender Management Assistance Program offers grants to states to aid in compliance with registry requirements. The law states, "In allocating funds under this subsection, the director may consider the annual number of sex offenders registered in each eligible state's monitoring and notification programs."
More sex offenders equals more money. And Florida will need it, if a bill introduced by Sen. Bill Nelson makes it into law. Nelson has proposed the Sexual Predator Effective Monitoring Act of 2005, which would require tracking ankle bracelets for offenders. In the first year, the law would disperse $10 million to the states to help implement the tracking program."
Now, private business are hocking their wares. GPS devices, private tracking & registry software, private businesses like Parents For Megan's Law offering outsourcing of registry compliance, and other services are popping up.
The government provides grants for certain services so there's some competition, just like any other government entity. Capitalism is giving the private sector the opportunity to flood the market with innovative ways of tracking citizens. In addition, businesses should be aware that due to the fears people have about sex offenders, they can sell products like home security systems or private registries.
If there was no money to be had here there would not be a proliferation of businesses offering sex offender-related products.
"We would have the registry whether Walsh is getting rich or not." If not Walsh, someone else would have gotten rich. Where there is an idea in politics, there is money. And even if money wasn't the only motivator (pushing a registry is good PR), money still plays a big role. Politics IS money. Money changes hands all the time in Congress.
We can't always see all the money flow, but for those in the industry, the money matters.
This is not the classic which came first, the chicken or the egg. The registry clearly came first and smart people are trying to make money off of it, that is business. What proof is there of an overall conspiracy between the people making some money and the politicians they are supposedly buying off? Politicians don't need to make money on the registry when they get "tough on crime" reputation. You haven't connected the dots between the money that is a drop in the bucket and the politicians enacting more draconian laws. I don't see the conspiracy you see.
Maybe you can't single out any particular individual getting rich but it sure is financially neutral to the citizens but the companies building GPS, databases, treatment, polygraphs when added up together are making a good living....
BTW... It's $20/week for probation plus $150/year for registration and $300 for a polygraph here....
What I am saying is that I don't see a smoking gun linking the money earned from sex offenders getting back to politicians and the courts. I don't see a cause and effect relationship between money and the political will to strip registered sex offenders of our rights. The registry didn't start as a money grab, even if it is today (which I question based on the total money it generates versus overall budget) that doesn't mean the policies are driven by money. How much money do people like Valerie making from the registry? Yet they spend an inordinate amount of their day worried about it.
Don't get mad at victims advocate groups for making money on something they feel passionately about. That's just business. (Though it's perfectly okay to be mad at victims groups for supporting and proposing legislation that endangers children and does nothing about 93% of victims). Truth be told, if I could make 100k a year doing sex offender advocacy I would do that in a heart beat. I'd drop my job right now.
My point is money is not how we got into this mess and money isn't the reason we are still in this situation. Money may be a small part of the problem but politics, human psychology, and the media play a much bigger role.
No, the registry and all its laws are not some grand conspiracy to either enslave the registrants or for any particular group of people to bring in revenue. Years ago, nobody thought up the idea by thinking, "Gee, wouldn't it be nice to have a law that come make us a lot of money and serve as a source of income." That did not happen.
The registry was conceived mostly as a political scheme to appease the masses who have been hoodwinked into thinking----mostly by the media--- it will keep them safe and that everyone on the registry is a child molester.
Money was never one of the reasons for its conception. It was politics, pure and simple.
It continues because politicians have learned that it is an easy ticket to get re-elected and that more restrictions on registrants is popular with the general public. The politicians are not going to abandon the idea of the registry and more laws as long as it is to their benefit----and they have the public's support---as far as getting re-elected and staying in office.
Having said that, nobody can disagree that there is not money to be made by certain groups with the registry. How much and if it makes much a difference, I don't know, so I can't comment. But prisons, polygraphers, probation officers, psychologists, etc., all make money off the registry. As far as that goes, they make money off all crimes, but that is another topic.
Is that the reason we still have the registry? No, I don't think so. It continues because of politics.
But, these people and groups of people also have no reason to want the registry to be abolished or go away. After all, the registry and its regulations represents some---how much I don't know---of their income. So human nature would predict that they would just as soon the registry continued to be law. Who would want to abolish something that was part of their revenue?
Even though the registry was not initiated by money, there are still too many people and groups of people profiting for the registry and its laws for them to really want them to go away.
That is my opinion.
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It is true that they may or may not----again, I don't know----have lobbyists to persuade the politicians to continue with these laws. I doubt people like the polygraphers, the psychologists, or most of the professional people within the system lobby the politicians, but I know for certain that the corporations that own private prisons have lobbyists at every legislative session.
Law enforcement has also been known to make their opinions heard at the legislative sessions around this country.
But the politicians make these laws and, unless a court decision renders some of these laws illegal, the politicians will be the ones to put a cease to these laws.
In the end and the bottom line is that it is the politician's decision to pass these laws. If all these laws and regulations were no longer to their advantage, you can be sure that the emphasis on passing so much sex offender legislation would stop.
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