So it is a huge money maker or they wouldn't do it? That is the argument? You make the gigantic assumption that the government cares about how they spend tax payers money, and that going into debt is a problem for them. If you were to look at our debt, those numbers would paint a much different picture. Politicians have a reckless disregard for how they spend tax payer money. Politicians have had no problem spending money they don't have if it would help them get re-elected. The amount of deals that go on in congress of the "You scratch my back I'll scratch yours" variety is mind blowing. If it helps them get re-elected they will do it -- to the tune of $18 TRILLION in debt.

My real question though is why does it have to be more complicated than it helps them get re-elected? Why do you suppose they have to be making money off imprisoning people?

Here is how I see it, just a whirlwind of bad events and bad ideas that have lead to where we are at today as a society that imprisons more people than any other country in the world. The media runs stories that get more attention from the public and more attention gets more money from sponsors. This is a cycle that continues onward because money is driving it. It just so happens that based on our human psychology we like the gory details, hence the phrase, "If it bleeds it leads." So news organizations run a lot of stories about crime and the impact on society. When I try to tell people that the crime rate has gone down according to the UCR and the NCVS no one that watches the news believes me. It is fascinating to see that educated people don't believe this. Even worse uneducated people don't believe this either, look no further than Val as exhibit A for people who only read the news and cannot step back and see the big picture.

In order to appease and capitalize on the fear that the media is putting into the general public politicians get a major bump in popularity when they appear tough on crime. They get an even greater chance to be re-elected when they purpose ever more draconian laws about sex offenders.

So you have the media driving fear into people, not on purpose but because it makes them more money. Then you have the politicians staying elected by capitalizing on that fear. That is why this whole thing is so ridiculous! Not because everyone is getting rich off of us, but that there no greater purpose for this! The government by pushing this insane laws is actually making our country less safe by not allowing offenders to rehabilitate and by their hyper focus on stranger danger versus people known to the victim!

I will use myself as an example my costs going through my entire criminal process is less than average annual cost of one prisoner in the US.

Lawyer: 15k
Psycho-sexual eval: 2k
Polygraphs: 1k
Monthly contributions to probation: 3k
Contribution to state for "watching me": 1k
Therapist: 8k

Approximately 30k is what my horrendous choice as a young teenager cost me. The average annual cost of imprisoning an inmate for just 1 year according to the Vera Institute of Justice? $31,286.

Ok no big debate here – I won’t debate with you Independent – I did not say that it was necessarily the gov’t making money (although I know they do) - if there wasn’t big profit to be had then the private companies that are now running many prisons would not do it. Here are just a few examples … to believe that they are not making big money is just drinking the kool aid. All those companies making millions and even billions from prison labor and you do not think the gov’t gets a share of that? Seriously?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289


http://time.com/3446372/criminal-justice-prisoners-profit/


http://www.attn.com/stories/941/who-profits-from-prisoners

You aren't interested in debating anything, you have your beliefs and aren't interested in even listening to the other side. That's okay, believe whatever you want to believe, I will respond to what you said though.

Yes I agree that private business makes money on this. That isn't to say that the government is somehow making money on this. Individual politicians are coming out ahead by pushing this agenda by becoming re-elected and getting more money in their campaign funds by supporting privatized prisons. But how does the government come ahead on this? Politicians sell everyone up the river to get re-elected, like Rew has said they only care about that, they care very little for anything else. The government is 18 trillion dollars in debt because politicians couldn't give a rip about balancing the budget and spending money wisely. To suggest that they are somehow making big money on this is insane.

The question is what came first? Public fear and the policy to try and quell the public fear, or private prison corporations trying to make money on it?

Public Fear ===> Politicians being tough on crime ===> Draconian laws ===> High prison population

Once it got to this point, entrepreneurs saw there was a way to make money with private prisons by running it better than the government. That is what happens in a capitalistic society, when someone sees there is money to be made they find a way to make it happen. However it does not mean that the making money is what caused this issue in the first place. Private prisons arose out of the need for the government trying to save money because of the stupid public policy they were creating to quell the fear of the public. Public fear of crime came first. In order to stop the madness that is our industrial prison complex we need to fix the fear. Because as long as politicians can continue to win by being "tough on crime" they will. And what allows politicians to get re-elected on this same platform repeatedly, that would be the public and john q taxpayer.

Make no mistake, the privatized prisons and the people who support them are garbage. I am not trying to defend their actions other than saying politicians are allowing it to happen. The does not mean they are the reason we are here today. The reason we are here today is public fear of crime and the politicians who capitalize on that fear of crime. Everything else is ancillary to that dynamic.

Fear is the root of the problem, not money. Money being made off of this is simply a symptom of the fear. Even if you could wave a magic wand and get rid of all private prison corporations and all the other garbage companies that try and make money off of us, you still have the public scared to death of sex offenders who they just know are out there lurking in the shadows just waiting to rape and kill their children.

No I am not interested in debating because this is NOT a debate forum.

And where did the public fear come from? Government - so a full circle and they continue to perpetuate the fear in order to keep the circle going ....

Also just a side note .... to assume that someone is not debating you becasue they do not support anyone else s ideas is a little arrogant - I am not debating you becasue I have no desire to engage since that is not what this forum is for ... In fact, the only time true debating is useful at all is in an academic setting in my opinion

What exactly are you looking for? Someone to argue with you? That will not be me - Someone to say I agree with everything you say for you are the master of all knowledge - that also will not be me. I stand by my opinion - which is all it is - there has to be some motivation to make this huge debacle worth it to the gov't -

And I did not say that it started with making money for the gov't - not sure where that came in to it - but I do think there is some motivation to keep it going and that is with out a doubt the almighty green.

Advocate and Independent,

Both of you are correct about prisons making money off inmates; there is also a lot of money changing hands during the probation process also.

It is true that, yes, the prison system does generate a certain amount of income through inmate labor. But, it is also true that the net effect of housing an inmate is not a profitable venture for the state.

Let me explain. The last prison I was at was a minimum security prison in a beautiful wooded area in Oklahoma. This prison had no fence around the perimeter and an inmate population of about 700 inmates.

Since this was a lower security facility, many of the inmates were eligible for work crews. I was not as I was a sex offender.

These work crews consisted of about 20 inmates with a CO supervising them and there were eight or 10 of these outside crews who worked on the outside. These crews cut grass and mowed at places like state parks and areas off the side of the highway. Many of the inmates painted for the state and some worked on a roadside crew holding up signs or other menial tasks during road construction.

In other words, they did almost anything.

This prison probably had 100-150 inmates who went out every morning at 8 AM and returned at 3 PM and they worked five days a week. For their work, they were usually paid $15 a month.

The DOC had contracted this work out with the State of Oklahoma through its agencies such as the Department of Transportation.

I don't know how much the DOT and other state agencies paid the DOC for the inmate labor, but I can assure you it was much more than $15 a month per inmate. In other words, the DOC did in fact make money off these inmate crews.

I don't know where the money goes, but the average cost of housing each minimum security inmate was about $30,000 per year.

Did the work crews generated enough income to pay for their keep? Depending on the money involved, possibly. More importantly did these outside crews generate enough income to offset the expenses involved to house all the inmates at that particular prison? No.

So, yes, in certain instances prisons do make money off inmates, but the money derived from the inmate labor is not enough to offset the costs housing the inmates.

But then you have to consider private prisons, of which there are many. They absolutely make money from housing inmates. To say they don't is foolish, since if they did not make money, they would no longer be in business, yet they are thriving. The more inmates they have, the more money they make. Profit is their bottom line, after all. The fact that these private prison corporations spend millions of dollars lobbying the legislature each year should be a hint that they are making money from housing inmates.

Did the lawmakers think to themselves, "I think I will pass harsh laws, which will mean more inmates for private prisons, which will then appease my friends who lobbied for these corporations?" No

The inmate population is not fueled by money, but by politics.

The money issue can get very complex especially when we begin to talk about probation. In Oklahoma probation fees are usually about $40 a month. If a PO has 100 probationers, then these fees will bring in $4,000 a month. I am quite sure than a PO is not paid $4,000 per month, so there is some profit having inmates on probation, although if you figure in ALL the expenses, I am not sure it overcomes the total cost.

So, yes, Advocate, the prisons---more specifically, private prisons---- do make money off inmates and probationers.

And, Independent, it is true that housing an inmate is not overall a profitable venture for either the state or the federal system.

During probation several groups of people are involved in the process----polygraphers, therapists, etc. These people would still have a job without any inmates, but they would be making less money, since someone is paying their salary. The inmate on paper time, does indeed, contribute to not only job security, but also generates some income for the polygrapher or therapist, since they also have to be paid.

Do we have such a high incarceration rate in this country so agencies can make money off the inmate population? Did the legislators sit amongst each other and say, "I think the state could make a lot of money via the prison system, so let's pass a bunch of laws, designate them as felonies, and create long sentences as a profit motive? No.

Are people arrested, convicted, and sent to prison or probation---or to be placed on the registry---for the purpose to make money. No

The reason for the exceedingly high incarceration rate is that the politicians pass extreme laws with longer sentences to appease an uninformed public who has had the hell scared out of them by the media, who also wants to make money by featuring juicy stories which are sex offender related.

The fact that the politicians prey on that fear from an uneducated public keeps our prisons full and our POs overrun with offenders.

The DAs play the same game although it is not a money game, but a power game.

The "tough on crime" politicians and the overzealous DAs are the source of our problems. Both favor harsh laws so they can be assured of re-election year after year; harsh laws lead to more people in prison---some to be used for labor----and more people on probation, where a lot of money is changed hands.

But the prison system has found the means to make a certain amount of money by using inmates.

But there are instances in which certain agencies operate programs which have money and power as the only goal, so in these instances money is generated through the potential offenders. I am referring to many of these sting programs----both CP stings and stings that involve the solicitation of a citizen.

The only reason these programs exist is to ensure they will receive thousands of dollars a year in the form of federal grants. These stings would not be in existence if they were not profitable in a sense.

Money and prisons or money and crime is a very complex issue.

Just my two cents.

rewdiazepam

Fear did not come from the government, it comes from the media. That is why there is such a disconnect between fear of crime and crime rates dropping. Media reporting of crime has gone way up, yet the actual crime rate per the Unifirmm Crime Report and the National Crime Victimization Survey has gone down significantly. Yet intelligent people cannot comprehend that crime has actually dropped! Why? Because they see it in the news that there was another murder and kidnapping just the other day. When you don't look at the big picture you get observation bias with each new media story. That is what the country is doing, especially when it comes to sex offenders.

Fear comes from the media not because they have some interest in keeping the public afraid but because of our human psychology. "If it bleeds it leads"'is how the media has operated for many years, and that works because of our psychology. With a 24 hour news cycle and living in the Information Age so to speak, we see a lot of news stories about crime. We also tend to remember the negative stories more than the positive stories, this creates thw disconnect between fear of crime and actual crime.

Politicians are playing on that fear, they give the public what they want. That is why these idiots can continue to overspend and get us 18 trillion in debt and still get re-elected. There is fear from the media and the politicians pounce on that fear and capitalize on it to stay elected by coming up with more draconian laws that make no sense economically for us as a country.

After taking some macro economic classes I came to understand how truly terrible our policy is monetarily for our economy. Yes private prisons may be making money and those blood sucking prison phone and prison banks may be making money but everyone else in the country loses! Felons coming out of prison are but a fraction of what they could have been providing the economy had they not gone to prison. Lost tax revenue, less buying power, more of a chance to recidivate and all that money a new crime could cause, not being able to afford healthcare which runs up our healthcare costs when they do get sick and the lust goes on and on!

Even if by some chance that prison labor at all prisons covered the cost of housing them (which in no way it does), the long term overall effect of mass incarceration is a huge drain on the economy.

I don't understand your point, "there has to be some motivation to make this huge debacle worth it to the gov't"

You mean there has to a monetary motivation to all of this? They have to be making money or they wouldn't be doing this? This is our government that is 18 trillion in debt and you think they have a reason for it? If they had a good reason for everything they did we wouldn't be 18 TRILLION in debt!!!!

Here is a list of who is making money on this:

1. Media, if it bleeds it leads
2. Private prisons and other companies that work in prisons like phone and banks
3. Politicians by getting re-elected

Our government, we the people, and our economy lose. The amount of money gained from mass incarceration pails in comparison to the poison it is to our economy.

The bottom line is if you could get rid of private prisons we would still have public fear from the media and politicians capitalizing on that public fear with bad tough on crime policies to stay elected.

I agree that the fear comes from the media but it also comes from the gov't with things like AWA and Megans .... also local govt

Well sure, the government when making laws like the AWA are responding and capitalizing on the fear the public already has from the media. Does it create more fear? Maybe, but that doesn't mean that it is the root cause of that fear.

Politicians will use whatever means necessary to get re-elected. Even if that means supporting policies that are bad for the country. Because again look at the $18 trillion in debt, politicians have absolutely zero problem pushing bad policy to get re-elected. Either they are knowingly doing so or show a reckless disregard for the truth, at this point I cannot tell nor do I think it really matters all that much. The results speak for themselves.