Codependency Support Group
Codependency is defined as someone who exhibits too much, and often inappropriate, caring for another person's struggles. A codependent person may try to change, or feel shame about their most private thoughts and feelings if they conflict with the other person's struggles. If you are on a journey towards self-love, this support group is for you. Join us and find others...
hasty_05 made a brilliant comment on my post about what would a person with self-respect do when she said, "Your soul and mind knows you need to stop living with this man and work on healing yourself. But then you second guess yourself because you still haven't made this guy love you enough to find you not annoying."
And it was like a lightbulb moment.
I am still desperate to get his approval, and that's why it's so hard to leave him. I guess the brain of the baby in the garbage bag went into, "Show people you can be what they want you to be" and I've been doing that ever since and it got REALLY bad with him. I'm stll desperate to show him that I can be what he wants me to be. I can get the doors unlocked when he wants and have his mugs all the way he wants them and make the world less annoying and less difficult for him.
I'm trying to figure out what to do with that desperation. I realize my original plan of trying to gather as much resentment and hatred for him so I could feel justified in leaving a monster or a narcissist isn't going to work. I was planning on continuing to avoid him as he avoids me, and enabling this silent treatment to go on for weeks until I finally got the courage to leave and then I'll pack my stuff and tell him, "yeah, this isn't working out. I'm gone" and walk out. But that would require me to sustain an extreme level of disgust and hatred of him and belief that he was a monster to me, and my anger was already fading today.
Plus he is NOT a monster or a narcissist. Unreasonable and unbearable, yeah, I'll agree with that, but he's also loyal, has integrity, and I know in his own oddball, cranky old man way, he cares about me. He's also, ironically, been the first person who has helped me stand up for myself and demand for things like pay or resources that were owed to me. I was a complete pushover before I met him and he was the person who taught me how to set boundaries with other people, which is hilarious because he HATES it when I say no to him and hell has broken loose when I did.
Yeah, he's no Prince Charming, but looking how I spent years desperate to please him made me realize that he wasn't as bad when we first started our relationship. He wasn't as easily annoyed or explosive, and I do think my codependency played a role is making him worse. A normal women would have told him on occasion when he went too far or that he needed to take a chill pill, but I just did whatever he wanted me to do and agreed with him on stuff even when I disagreed and let him get carried away and explode everywhere and get worse and worse. I enabled the hell out of his temper and fussiness and getting into fights with people. True codependent all the way, will enable your destructive habits and tell you are right even if I think you're wrong.
And I'm NOT saying that he isn't to blame. He's a grown ass man. Even if I was actively pushing him to explode at everyone and become increasingly intolerant of everything, he made the decisions to act how he did, so that's on him. But I need to acknowledge my role in this, and how my enabling codependent dishonesty caused this situation that is harming both of us.
So yeah, I can't go the "He's evil, stay angry until you're brave enough to leave, now go" route. He deserves better than that. I'm not saying he deserves me giving this relationship a second change, but more, he deserves my honesty, something he never got in this relationship from me. I'm going to take some time to think of what I need to be honest with him about. God that's scary, being honest with him. I hate being honest with people in general, but it's going to be an anxiety-inducing heart attack that will kill me to be honest with him. I'm supposed to tell this man, who has gigantic anger issue, who blows up at the smallest thing, who's sarcastic and mocks me when I try to speak up, that yeah, hey, um, you have some very destructive behaviour, and I'm sorry, I've been enabling those behaviours for years now. If this relationship is to continue, something needs to change. Otherwise, we're REALLY bad for each other.
Since I managed things that needs to change, let's mention one: It can't be just his discomfort that matters. He gets so upset when he perceives that I'm being insensitive to his needs or that I'm disrespecting him or ignoring him, and I'm the hurtful, disrespectful monster, because I move his mug or something, but my pain when he's giving me the silent treatment or saying punishing things (and dude goes for the kill when he wants to punish with his words, he wants you to feel like piece of shit he think you are) doesn't. I know he's rationalizing that as he's punishing me for being disrespectful to him so I should feel pain, but, no, even if I was being disrespectful, (and dude is too unreasonable for what constitutes being disrespectful), my pain still needs to matter as much as his. Okay, I realize that his pain at having to fumble with keys or wait 10 seconds for me to wash his mug is too much for him to handle. That's trauma beyond compare. Good god, what kind of a monstrous woman would disrespect a man like that? Okay, no pain can matter as much as that. But still, my pain at being given the silent treatment and told I'm a piece of shit needs to matter a little.
Heh, okay, clearly still a little angry ;) If he can be sarcastc, I can be too. But yeah, it can't just be his discomfort and distress that matters.
Anyways, just writng my thought out, as I try to figure out what to do next, and what will I say.
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It's been some time since my last post...sorry. I've been going through a challenging time with the sale of my home, purchase of a condo and my adult asperger son that lives with me. I've had days where I couldn't get out of bed, days where I stayed in my pj's and days where all I managed to do was eat, drink fluids and take care of my Sweet Mia kitty. Sweet Mia came to me from a shelter about...
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If I come to DS and it won't do anything when I click "Login", I go to a post, click and then click "Leave a Reply". Then it will let me log in.Of course, sometimes DS just goes to "Error 504". Then I can't log in.
and then prepare for a explosion of sarcasm and snide remarks about how I suck and don't satisfy him. If he does that though, I'll remind myself that he's being unreasonable and needs to grow up. Him fumbling with keys is NOT abusive. we've done it all year, it's only been the last three days he decided to make an issue out of it. Maybe I'll even tell that to his face. He always gets mad at me when I don't stand up for myself with other people and says angrily that I let people treat me like a dog (he's not wrong), but when I stand up for myself with him, good god, his rage is unbelievable. Mind you, it's been years since I tried to stand up to him, so maybe it'll go better this time. Not betting on it. Will let you know how it goes if I do decide to confront him.
The first few months of walking I walked pretty fast as the thoughts were just non stop. Over time the voices were quieter and I started feeling calm.
To recover from the stress of unhealthy behaviors I have read that it’s imperative to be single for a year.
I know that my experience is fortunate in that we (ex) are on the same page and support each other. I feel for everyone that has these bad breakups.
I read a bit of Buddhist philosophy and I have one book by the Dahli Lama ‘How to live a meaningful life’ , that I love. He mentions that anger is the useless emotion because it doesn’t teach us anything only perpetuates the feeling of fear and separation. I don’t have the anger thing. Both my parents did and I think it just turned me off to that emotion.
When your BF is angry, the possibility of open mindedness is shut down. It’s selfish ignorance to put it bluntly. I could not put up with that nonsense. And you deserve to have peace. In anger no one else is right. To me that is the definition of narcissistic.
And don’t wash his mug btw. In fact maybe it’s a good idea to have him wash both of yours. In my marriage we never did the chore list thing. There was an unspoken agreement between worked for us but I can see how it could be a useful tool.
After work can you go for a walk or gym, library so you aren’t the first one home? These gradual changes may help both of you adjust.
What comes to mind the most when reading this post is that you don’t have to contort yourself to rationalize your decision to end this relationship.
Yes, you have enough respect for him to want to explain why but most importantly is that you KNOW it’s what’s best for YOU.
Because taking care of ourselves is NOT selfish.
Once I started living alone I started extensive gardening. I grow so much food that I can preserve enough for myself for the year AND give so much away. My ex gets a basket weekly of fresh produce. I am able to have the time to work enough to pay my bills AND help my kids out.
In my free time I volunteer as a EMS responder for my community and have adopted a nature trail close to me to maintain.
Take care of myself = the positive energy to help others. NOT selfish:)
The other thing that I learned (and you will too) is how much energy I was putting into one person to try and make them happy. Exhausting!!! And futile because the only one who can make us happy is ourselves.
It’s really funny when you step back from the situation and look at it as someone on the outside.
I’m glad that you had some light bulb moments and, these will continue as you are willing to go outside your comfort zone.
Comfort zone is another funny thing to me now. When I got out of my ‘comfort zone’ of drinking everyday I realized what hell I had been putting myself through by avoiding life and living under a rock. NEVER again!!! Hilarious really:)
Silly human….
The trick is to see the big open world as the safe exciting place and our little contracted world as the scary place.
I was married for 10 yrs to a covert narcissist and I literally wrecked my life trying to please him, but it was never good enough. As a result my physical health suffered.... every time I dared to take care of myself, it somehow was a real inconvenience to his life. I suffered in many other ways, too, but if i dared to say anything about it at all, he would tell me to shut up and stop complaining, and the only "help" I needed was a psychiatrist. It was like he wasn't satisfied UNLESS I suffered. I finally woke up to the fact that this was just a sick game and the only way to end the game is to LEAVE. So I moved out and served him divorce papers.
Nobody can convince you that you are in an unhealthy relationship. Usually people don't wake up till they hit rock bottom. Narcissists are attracted to people who self sacrifice to please them. And unfortunately, codependents are attracted to selfish, cold hearted people. The only way to stop this cycle is to end the relationship, be mindful of your unhealthy-self sacrificing habits, and work on changing them. And make taking care of yourself a priority. But it is your life and your decision. Live it how you want to.
I want you to know that you have the right to reject even the kindest, gentlest, and sweetest man alive. Let me tell you a story of a friend I had that taught me a lot. She was single and she had a man friend who told her every day that he loved her, and he wanted to marry her. He was a nice man. Hard working, well respected. She told him NO!
I said why don't you get to know him maybe you might like him and eventually fall in love. She said NO! I know the type of man I want, and he is not it. There was nothing wrong with him, but she wanted certain characteristics, and he didn't meet them. She taught me a lot. I have the right to make decisions even if they "hurt" another person's expectations. I don't have to accommodate others or feel obligated. She did it in a way that was respectful and very much a self-loving way. You have RIGHTS AS A PERSON. In fact, if she had been with him, she probably would have been miserable, and the relationship would have deteriorated. So, she made a very healthy decision.
Why I haven't let go of this relationship when I know there's something happier and more fulfilling for me is stumping me as well. I don't think I'm afraid of life or what is out there for me. I know I can have riches and beauty and I'm fit for great life. But it feels like a great betrayal to have a beautiful life without him for some reason.
BlueSky - Your relationship sounded awful. I'm sorry he was so terrible to you. I do know crazy-making it is trying to please someone and not succeeding. And if he was only satisfied if you suffered, that must have been hell. Good on you for waking up, having enough, and serving the divorce papers. That took guts and I admire you so much for that :) I'm glad you're out of that relationship and you're in a happier, healthier one.
I looked up the 9 traits of NPD and watched lots of video on narcissst, and he isnt one. He doesn't cheat (I did the cheating, not him), he doesn't lie, (I do the lying, not him), he doesn't exploit people (since I'm so good at being charming and likable, it's far easier for me to manipulate people and I totally have), but that doesn't mean he can't be nasty and toxic person, because good god, he can be and probably is. Whether he is or not doesn't matter in the end. He's making me feel awful and that's the main thing. It's sad there's such a huge emphasis on narcissists and less on other types of toxic people. I'd like to see more on relationships where both parties are toxic, because that's my case. I want to move past the guilt of the wrongs I did him (and other men), so I can tell myself it's okay to not put up with the all wrongs he's doing to me right now.
Sarafinajane - I love that message. Good on your friend for knowing what she wanted and sticking to what she wanted. I agree, someone doesn't need to be a bad person in order for someone to feel right in dating them. Just not wanting to be in relationship, even if they're the most supportive, loving, and kind person, is reason enough to leave. Though if you see the amount of people who leave messages about being abandoned by their partners, not a lot of people will agree with that. I do though. I don't think it's abandonment to leave your partner even if they are good to you. If you abandon your responsibility or kids and leave them to fend for themselves, that's one thing, but to fall out of love and go somewhere else, I get that. There's still a part of me that sees leaving as a betrayal though, so that's something that I'll just have to work through.
You want to make this man not be annoyed by you but what if his failures allow you to be superior to him inside your head? And what if his failures allow you to be angry and the victim of him? What if conflict with him creates drama or attention which is good enough when there isn’t love?
So you stay with him because it’s a purpose, so to speak. I don’t know anything about you really except what you write, but when we can’t figure out why we stay in unhappy, dysfunctional relationships, it is often an underlying thing/problem within us or being their caregiver is our purpose.
As long as we are in a sick relationship, we get to be (fill in that blanks). A martyr, a mother to them, the superior or the victim, focused on changing them, blah blah blah. This is deep stuff. Sit with what small piece you have learned and give it time. Our inner work takes effort and time.
Your background is one of trauma. Maybe you learned all these dysfunctional behaviors or thinking to survive? They don’t work now because they grew way back then. Trauma is a different animal. Love on yourself some.
It's a REALLY bad addiction. I don't do drugs, but I can't imagine any drug being more potent than my weirdass addiction to serve him. I can't explain the high, the insane satisfaction and delirium that comes when I'm able to pull things off for him and he's happy with me. Or the anxiety, desperation, and withdrawal symptoms when I can't get what he needs to be happy.
Interestingly, I did try to talk to the baby in the garbage bag today, asking her why did she want to stay and I wanted to let her know that she didn't need anyone else's approval or had to be what they want, and the response I got was basically, "I do want to leave. It's you who want to stay." It took a long time after that to accept what she was saying was true, and as much as I've been ranting here about wanting to leave, I desperately don't want to lose him. I don't know if alcoholics would throw a fit if a bottle was taken from them, but if they do, I totally understand why because that's how I feel about not having him in my life.
It made me realize this is going to take a lot more time than I anticipated, and simply telling myself, "okay, you're done" isn't going to be enough. You're right, this is pretty deep stuff, and probably a malfunction of trauma. That said, doesn't everyone have trauma? I was told everyone has trauma, so is this really a different animal?
Your comment was super helpful, as always! I need to figure out how to get over this addiction to make him happy, and sadly, I just realized how much harder that was going to be, but I am willing to do the work. I've already made a lot of progress and learned a lot about myself and trauma and humanity in general and those lessons are like gold to me. I know I can get better and healthier.
Like you, I’m not vain but recognize similar things about myself that I know are attractive. When I started dating I met a few amazing women and was struck with how normal and easy it was to interact with a healthy person.
I’m curious if you feel something similar to what I feel about leaving my ex. Survivors guilt. I know that I am ok on my own but I don’t think she is. I am still going over to have dinner with her (I get the groceries and cook/clean up) , help with random things that she can’t do.
There is an intricate web that I am slowly untangling and I learn something about myself and how I interact within a relationship.
I also admire your deeper thinking and starting on this journey with yourself. Change is not easy and it takes work and examining how we think about things. We get to decide if our reactions and our thinking is helpful to creating a peaceful, happy enough, content enough, family life or not.
I like the way you sat and talked to your 'inner child' the one in the bag. I love the answers you allowed to come to you. First we begin to know things that need to change and then we begin to do the actually changing of things. It is never fast for me.
I think it is okay to help someone, I surely help my spouse all the time. It does feel good to "fix" the problems in life or to figure out where someone is going wrong on their projects. Every one of us needs a fresh set of eyes at times.
But there is some disconnect between how you rage at him and the constant feeling like he is annoyed by you and your desire to feel valued, worthy, appreciated. We have to understand what our deepest feelings are and where they come from, at least in my opinion. Some people need good licensed clinical therapist to help. Often people with TRAUMA need professional help and this area is one that the psychiatric profession has become more cognizant of and skilled at understanding.
I want to go back to TRAUMA with all caps. No, not everyone in life has this kind of trauma. Some of our members on DS have a huge childhood or adulthood trauma. TRAUMA especially in childhood can affect the brain development.
I do not like to minimize what you experienced as a child and how it has very likely affect you to this day. I am not a psychiatric professional and am not diagnosing you but I think this is a huge thing to have happened to you (and your mother).
I do not consider the things I have experienced that were "traumatic" (small t traumas) to be like what you described, small child in a bag and told to shut up because you annoy everyone else in the refugee camp. What about the bad things that came before you and mom ended up in the refugee camp? What happened to your mom to make her unable to comfort you or talk about the things you were screaming about? How did you feel that made you scream and cry so much - probably helpless, or powerless, maybe hungry, maybe physical pain, fill in the blanks. Do not answer on here, I am trying to explain the difference.
As a child you could not cope and it sounds like neither your mother could either. Your whole life has been affected by this emotional and maybe physical pain of childhood and all you wrote about. Trauma also can change the brain, especially all caps TRAUMA. Especially in childhood. This is not the same as my little t trauma of heart surgery, as bad as that was. At least in my opinion.
It's more betrayal guilt, similar to cheating on him, where someone chooses another person over the betrayed. Leaving would mean I'm choosing life without him over life with him. You're able to keep your ex in your life, so I don't know if you had to wrestle with the guilt that you'll be shutting her out of your life. I know I'll have to slam door to his face and lock him out, and one of the few times he's admitted pain in this relationship was when he felt like I was shutting him out (which I know is rich and hypocritical coming from someone who has given me numerous silent treatments, but man, the pain he revealed when he said that!)
I know rejection is one of the most painful emotions to experience. It's painful being told, "Life without you is better than life with you. I know I tell you that I love you and care for you, but the truth is I'm happier when you're gone, and you have no place in my happiness."
I don't know how to get over that guilt. I think I just need to accept it and sit with it and that, well, I'm a selfish b***** who doesn't want to sit with difficult emotions, so... it'll take some time.
hasty_05, I'll get to your comment later. I'm at a teacher conference (holy shit, post coming about that because I think the universe is trying to tell me something) but should be write a response this weekend.
But I do think being forced into a concentration camp during wartime and experiencing death, torture, rape, forced abortions, and a host of other things that my family did go through is... well, I don't want to say they are harder than break-ups, surgeries, toxic workplaces, etc., but like, we also go through trauma with small t. It's not like the universe decided that we had TRAUMA so no trauma with little t for us. We deal with little t too, and a lot of my family are severely messed up and messing others up from their TRAUMA.
this isn't about winning the oppression olympics or minimizing trauma with little t. the pain of trauma is severe and serious, no matter big or little T. And it's not about identifying with trauma and using it as an excuse for why my family is as messed up as they are (and they are SEVERELY messed up.)
For me, what you wrote was very validating, because I felt like a lot of people think all brains should be wired the same, because everyone suffers trauma, so why the hell is my mind and my family so uniquely messed up? I mean, I do think my family is a mistake and shouldn't exist, but who knows, maybe we did go through something extraordinary that would mess up the brain more than a break up or a surgery.
You're right about rejection. Thanks, I need to look at this closer and see if I have that in me.
The trauma discussion is intense! I have never felt like my suffering can be called trauma. If I did, I would label it vanilla white guy trauma... I've had some life knocks that hurt but, ultimately, its how hard I've been on myself that has been the lasting stuff. I've been doing my own concoction of self therapy for that and feel nearly whole. Although, if my stuff could be little t trauma, I should hold it up to the light just like big T because, otherwise it becomes this vague lurking thing in the shadow. I suppose whatever level it is requires facing it and getting real with ones self.
I have some things I need to sit with myself so thank you for opening this:)
Good luck with your courage!
Some of your questions about why you do what you do, why you feel like you feel, the conflict with your partner, all of that may harken back to what you experienced growing up. What your family experienced. And this is why I suggested you look into trauma based therapy because they are doing wondrous work on helping the trauma affected brain now.
All brains are different and to have a brain health "disorder" or issue does not mean someone is a terrible person or "less than" - it just is what it is. When you describe the crying and sometime screaming you do after arguments with your partner, well it reminds me of how you were as a child and how you processed your feelings by the crying or screaming and then the group forced your mother to find an extreme way to shut you down. Sounds like a lot of traumatized people trying to live in an environment meant to break them down. And yet, you survived and sounds like some of your family survived also. But you carry something within your brain and psyche from that time, anybody would, all of us do.
Some call this "inner child" work and it can help. Because that inner child we all have comes alive in our daily lives as adults. We have needs not fulfilled sometimes in childhood, or big T traumas, or other things maybe. If we are functioning from that old stuff in trying to get our childhood needs met as an adult, we tend to get stuck in unhappy land. My childhood need was to be wanted, loved, appreciated, found to be good enough simply because my parents had their own issues, little I issues. But showing love was something they found difficult. I lived from that need for years until I hit about age 55-60. Long journey and I hope your journey is perhaps shorter! There is good help for this stuff. You can google how childhood trauma affects brain development for more information. I only know a little about this.