Is there any way to just stop going for dinner? I realize it's part of the NY Italian culture (I'm originally from NY - Italian family) anyway, I think I would advise you to remove yourself from this situation for now. They obviously are browbeating you into stuff and until you can get up the courage to stand up to the two of them ganging up - avoid the situation and develop a defense against them. I think if you don't approach this issue at some point, you're going to explode on them. And that, while it might work - probably is not the best option.

WOW! They really put a lot of pressure on you. But you can learn to overcome...really! Keep coming back to our group and we can help you. Remember, you are a wonderful person. Yes, YOU are!

First, STOP going over there. It will be hard, but let them know why. Tell your father that his yelling is wrong and you won't come over because of that.

And as for the demanding that you eat. I have two people in my life like that. I just let them repeat and repeat and repeat. And I just eat what I want to and ignore them. Sometimes they even get nasty, but I let that be their problem. I KNOW what I want to eat and what I need to eat. And that is my business and my business only. Remember, people who comment on what you eat are very rude people. And they are trying to be manipulative. So, don't even reply to them. Just do what YOU want. And don't act upset. You have rights, too. You have the right to love your body and to treat it kindly.

As far as people saying hurtful things, and then blaming you for feeling hurt because "they were only kidding". UH NO...they are being abusive. That is a form of abuse. Sarcasm in a form of hostility, and it should not be accepted.

I realize that usually in this group we don't tell people what to do. But I think you need immediate help. I'm sorry if this message seems to strong. But I can see you doing some stuff that I used to do. I'm so much more comfortable with loving myself, than with trying to please nasty, manipulative people.

You have a right to love yourself and to take care of yourself in a very gentle and kind way. You are worth it.

Thank you both for your comments.

I need strong comments. Rachael- ur right- I do need immediate help. Understanding my codependency makes me feel like a child. I feel like I have no earthly clue how to live my life in a healthy way. The large majority of my thinking can't be trusted- so I count on people I can trust to explain to me what a functional person would do and feel in these scenarios. My therapist is one of them- and people on this site really help also. I've been reading this book by pia mellody- "facing codependency." I'm an active reader- so I underline stuff and write in the margins, etc. I shit u not- I have underlined this entire book! Everything applies! And while its amazing to truly have everything I do and feel make sense- its taxing and it takes a lot of energy to change.

I told my dad yesterday that I would not be coming over this sunday and that sundays aren't good for me, they never have been. I mentioned the fat jokes- which he says he doesn't remember making- and I believe him bc, of course, he was drunk at the time. But that really doesn't erase the fact that my whole week was all fucked up bc he treated me like a non-human. Anyway- he was heartbroken- I could tell. I didn't say straight up that the manner in which he treated me was unacceptable. I still don't know if telling him that is for the best. I know its freeing to tell the truth- but at the same time getting out of there for now- even if I lie about why- is better than staying there. He said "u just don't want to come over". I didn't tell him he was wrong- I just gave him a look. I went by yesterday to visit a little bit then to take my grandma out to dinner- he didn't want to come.

He was so upset and I'm not even cutting him out of my life- I'm just not going to be in his life on his terms anymore- its my terms or nothing. I felt amazing after I set those boundaries. Then I woke up in the middle of the night and cried for 2 hours straight. I admit I am powerless to help him, and that's really really really hard. I've dedicated my life to making him better. I'm 30- that's about 20 years to get past. Its hard as hell- but I realize that its the only way to be healthy. If I don't get out now who the fuck knoiws how many more years I'll waste.

I am worth it, thank u for saying that. Bc I can type it- but I don't fully believe it yet. I'm getting there though.

And- sunday is a big tradition for NY italians- so its a hard one to give up. But I have to try.

Thank u both for ur input, it is truly appreciated.

Yeah, definitely stop going over there for at least a month, just so you can get some distance and breathing room from all that dysfuntion. The trying to force you to eat is highly annoying.....and 10 times and then teasing you about your weight....that is awful! You don't deserve this, especially since you are choosing to be in his life after he has alienated everyone else because of being nasty to everyone.

Good luck! Your health and happiness is the number one priority!

You know, Serenity, you skirted around telling your father why you won't visit. And then you say that hurt him. Uh...well...if you told him the truth, that would probably NOT hurt him. Tell him you will not be around him because when he is drunk he talks to you in a nasty way. That way he can't feel "hurt" and try to manipulate you. He might be angry, but let him be angry. He needs to know that HE is the reason you are not going there...it's not you.

As you have worded the situation to him, he can choose to feel hurt
and then try to manipulate you. But by telling him the truth, he might realize that acting hurt won't cut it! It's his fault. Yes, it is. It's not the alcohol's fault, it's HIS fault.

You are trying to take the blame for him. You are trying to act like it's your choice to stay away...just because! That give him room to manipulate. Do NOT try to set your boundaries by lying. Let your dad know it's his behavior that is causing you to stay away.

And try to realize that just because "it's the way of Italian families to get together on Sunday" that it HAS to be your choice to be there. Your family dynamics are destructive. And let them know the REAL reason you are staying away...because your father's behavior is not acceptable.

You are so worth taking care of. You can learn to be gentle with yourself. But remember, you CANNOT fix another person. It just can't be done.

You CAN help yourself. You are special. Treat yourself kindly.

Hi, serenity9, We all feel the same way: Don't go over there on Sunday. What he does is definitely abuse. Everything is your fault. That let's him off the hock. He is probably the way he is because of his Mother. You realize that all this is not normal. I am proud of you for standing up for yourself. You are an adult and NO one can tell you what to do. People that are controling are very insecure!!!!!!! You can only fix a problem when you realize what it is. So, You are on your way to freedom. Keep telling yourself this.

I have been on several other sites since last Nomember. It has helped me so much. When I first bought the book about codependency it listed 4 pages of insane things that I did. Each thing we do as a codependent person causes us pain. I let people say rude things to me. When you allow this to hapen they keep on doing it. I'm 65 years old and finally taking up for myself. Oh, it has been a struggle. I don't like conflict. But you know what, until you take up for yourself therte is going to be conflict. When you become a doormat, it makes me so mad. And it's been my fault because I allowed people to do this. Each time you stand up to people it gets easier. Trust me on this. If we don't take up for ourselves no one else will.

Keep us posted on your success. You are worth it. We make choices and people can't put a guilt trip on us unless we let them.

Keep posting on here and you will begin to see your life change for the better. Hugs, Jlovie

I will keep my advice short, sweet and to the point. The first step to healing is to remove unhealthy elements from your life. The next time your father calls, politely tell him that until he can learn to treat you with dignity and love you will not come over or return his phone calls. If he starts to gripe at you from there, simply tell him that you aren't going to listen to this and hang up. We either allow people to treat us unfairly or we don't. Peace to you.

you talk alot about what yuor dad does to you - and this is very valid - his behaviour is sad and damaging,

ideally , however, you will be focusing on YOU, (we cant change others, we can only change what we have the power to change),

YOU can say NO. YOu can remove yourself from this damaging behaviour. YOU can eat healthy portions and get your to the size that YOU want it.

who knows, leading by example, in the long run, might help yuor dad see a healthier path to follow (sadly though, it sounds like your beautiful, wonderful grandma, has created a son who isextremely co-dependant and the reward? she gets him to herself as she grows old).

co-dependancy is passed from generation to generation! good luck breaking the cycle!

My mother was on the phone to me today saying "of course we want to feel needed by our children" and I was thinking red alert, red alert!!! Doesnt my mother feel good on her own?!!! doesnt my mother love herself enough to not need to be needed? - the answer is - she is still co-dependant, but I am determined NOT to be anymore, I am breaking the cycle to give my son a chance at healthy relationships and at this stage I can honestly say, I am happy with the company of my son, but I dont need him and I dont need him to need me, I want him to gain independance and a wonderful woman and wife ... well... soon - he is only 3!!! lol

Obviously you love your Dad and Grandma otherwise why would you endure this kind of treatment and pain. If your dad is an alcoholic and your grandmother is his enabler what does that mean you are? Everyone's feelings are important but that doesnt give others permission to take you down with them. I think I agree with the others as far as being open about why you arent going over. It seems no matter what they are going to be upset that you dont go so why not just be honest its not like being honest is going to be the difference between acceptance and anger. I am so sorry you have to feel this from your family. I think if you stay away for awhile, like a month or more again with the understanding made clear as to why, you may see a change. They are hurting too but it's no reason for you to be tortured. Take care

I think that people who remain in a nasty environment don't do it out of love, it's out of codependency. If someone says they stay with the abusive so-and-so "because I love him". I doubt it. It's because they love being the victim. Codependency can cause us to do some very harmful things to ourselves, like tolerating abuse. That's not love of the other person, it's hatred for oursevles.

Thank you Rachel100, this is why I am on this site because I need help figuring out my codependent tendencies...

Thank you all so much for taking the time to comment on my scenario. I've been reading the comments all weekend through- thinking about how to respond. It's all been very helpful

So- I didn't go over there Sunday and I won't go this Sunday. It was actually really amazing this Sunday to not go there. I woke up happy, like everything good was possible. I guess sometimes I go through my day to day life and no matter how bad it gets sometimes- I don't realize it b/c I'm in the middle, living it. Then sometimes one of the bad elements gets removed (on purpose or not) and I sit there in shock- like holy shit- I had no IDEA that took this much energy from me. That's how this Sunday felt. It was amazing. I sat and thought of everything my fathers negativity, drinking, and abuse took from me over the years- everything I unconsciously let him take from me. Literally, it was 2 hours every Sunday and it took SO much energy from me just knowing I had to be there and deal with his shit. One of my friends commented on Sunday being the worst day b/c it ends one week and begins another. That's true. Being there meant every week started in shit and ended in shit. No more. I'm going to make myself happy.

He called me this Sunday and asked how I was. He was decent. What I haven't mentioned yet is that I actually do stick up for myself whenever my father is nasty to me. Verbally most of the times. I'm not a mousy chick- I let him have it- I always have. See- here's where the dilemma comes in. It doesn't matter what I say to him or how I say it. I promise, I've tried sarcasm (prefer that one), anger, somberness, calmness, and others. I've tried every possible angle known to me to communicate with that man and let him know what he does to me and do you know how much good that has done for me? Not much. Some good- b/c the fact that I say it is a good thing. The fact that I let him know its unacceptable is good. So there's that. But every time I have to hear the same thing- this is his argument:

1. I should be over this by now. He says this to me like it's an absolute certainty. Then he will list a long line of people who have been through things in life and (in his eyes- not in reality) seem to be "okay." Here's his definition of "okay": People who make good money are "okay," people who are thin are "okay," and people who do not show negative emotion are "okay." And if you make good money, are thin, AND never show any negative emotion- HOLY SHIT! Youve made it. Youve arrived. So heres the translation for all of this shit: What hes really saying to me is- If you were better, youd be okay. If you were good enough, youd be okay. Youre crazy and its all your fault.

2. This is my ABSOLUTE favorite one: Everything was wonderful for you growing up Youre childhood was perfect. Btw- he says this one with a really large smirk on- so I can kind of know that hes rubbing it in. So heres the translation for this: shut up, youre crazy. The only reason youve ever suffered in your life is b/c you are crazy. Everything is perfect. If you werent crazy youd see that.

3. There are times I have actually cried in front of him while talking about the things he did. He didnt admit to them. He didnt say he was sorry. He looked at me like I was lying to him then he told me I shouldnt be a part of his life if he affects me that much.

4. Heres the Catch all. And he uses this one often. Ill come up with the great argument or explanation for something. Ill analyze it- well. I will leave no area unremarked on. But do I get anything for that? HAHA- NO! NOT AT ALL! He just stares at me blankly. For about 30 seconds- however long it takes. Like hes looking right through me- b/c he is. And then hell change the subject like I never spoke. This happens every time I correctly describe what hes done or said.

So there it is- and just to make it clear- I have experienced each one of them MANY MANY MANY times.

It is about me. I didnt go there this Sunday for me. I didnt tell him why for me. Not b/c I want to protect him- screw him. Its b/c I want to protect me. I didnt and dont need his abusive responses. Ive heard them my entire life and to be honest- they hurt a hell of a lot more than the mistakes he made while I was growing up. The way he blames me for EVERYTHING hurts so much more than anything that has ever happened to me. He makes me relive the abuse each time he denies anything happened. And Ive heard each of them 1,000 times. So yeah- I opted not to deal with the abuse this time. It was for me and only me. If I would have told him why it would have been for him and this is not about him.

I do love my dad and my grandma. With my grandma- shes old. Shes never going to see life a different way. Shes pushing 90. I adore that woman. The things she says about my dad- she will always say them. I just have to accept that and try to change the subject when she says things like she does. Honestly, she isnt all there. Even if I explained all of this to her, she wouldnt understand it.

With my Dad: I do love him a lot. However, the reason I stay even though he abuses me can be better explained by my twisted definition of what love is. My skewed vision of love is why I stay. So one can say its b/c of love. But not the wholesome type of love thats healthy. For me, I have to learn how to redefine that word- love. I wont learn if I keep going there on Sundays. He will keep re-opening my wounds.

If and when I feel comfortable telling my father why I dont go there on Sundays I will. I realize that doing so might be the best thing to do logically- but for me, right now, the best I can do is to stay away and I plan to do so.

Again- thank you all SO MUCH for taking the time to respond. Every comment has been so helpful. I appreciate you all so much.

Your Dad is verbally abusive. Whatever you say, he throws it back on you. Therefore you are the one with the problem.. If he doesn't answer then he's not quilty. When you try to explain something and he starts talking "CRAZY TALK". it is also so that he's not the one with the problem. Crazy talk can definitely make you crazy because it doesn't make any sence.

I don't think he is going to change now. Try to limit your contact for awhile. if you go over and he starts in on you then say, I'm sorry I need to go now I have some things I need to do at home. Telling him anything is not going to work, especially if he's drinking.

You are not a punching bag, Honey, don't be his doormat. He is a very angry person and he is taking it out on you Hope this helps. I'm so sorry you are having all these problems. I know it is so hard on you because it is your Dad. There is no instruction manual that comes with being a parent. take care of yourself. Hugs, Jlovie

Hmmm, I don't agree with you not saying why you are staying away. PUT THE BLAME ON HIM. Do not say you are staying away because of something you HAVE to do. Tell him once that you are staying away because he is verbally abusive, and leave it at that. Don't expect any sensible reply. I don't understany why you, and others, want you to say that you are staying away because you have to do this or that. Tell him you are staying away, or not talking with him on the phone, because he is nasty to you. And do not say more, and do not expect any type of agreement on his part.

You seem to do the same thing over and over gain, expecting a different result. That is NOT healthy. What I mean is that you tell him over and over again what he does wrong, they you expect him to reply like a sane person. This is not going to happen. So just briefly say he is nasty or abusive or some one word, then go or hang up. Do not wait for something differtent from him.

You are making healthy choices right now, by staying away. As you said your Sunday was a LOT better for you. Keep yourself in mind, keep yourself healthy. Do NOT fall back into the crazy trap.

You know you are a fine person. You don't need to be around someone who tells you differently. Your childhood sounds like a nightmare. You don't need some crazy person telling you that you had a wonderful childhood, when you know better. Take care of yourself. Build yourself up. Be around people who can make you feel great about you.

You say you "love" your grandmother and you "love" your father. Be very, very careful when you say that. I've been there. It's like when you say that, it's excusing their awful behavior. Don't fall into that trap.

God tells us to respect our parents. We can respect them from a distance...from a great distance.

Don't take abuse at any time from anyone. Love yourself.

I want to thank you Rachael100 because I know you have taken time to try to help me and I really appreciate that. But I really feel that your last two posts have been overly critical and that you arent really listening to what Im saying. Maybe its b/c Im not making myself clear. So, Ive broken it down line by line. I really hope it doesn't come accross as combative- I dont mean it to be that way. I just want to clear things up.

I don't agree with you not saying why you are staying away
-I dont understand what you dont agree with. I dont understand what you dont understand. Hes horrible and abusive and telling him the truth will absolutely, 100%, no question, lead to more abuse.

And do not say more, and do not expect any type of agreement on his part.
-I dont expect any agreement- I never have. I dont even expect him to react in anyway that isnt attacking me and I dont want to be attacked. Period. Ive lived this with this man for many years- I know what he will say and I know what he will do.

You seem to do the same thing over and over gain, expecting a different result
-Im absolutely not doing the same thing and expecting different results. NOT going over there this Sunday was the opposite of what Ive always done. Furthermore- NOT telling him why is the opposite of what Ive always done also. So its the opposite of what you are saying. I want different results and Im doing what I have to do to receive them.

What I mean is that you tell him over and over again what he does wrong, they you expect him to reply like a sane person
-No I dont. Not at all. I dont expect anything other than a raging lunatic bitter drunk when I speak to him. That is 100% why Im not telling him why. Thats also the reason why Im codependent- b/c my whole family has refused to admit any wrong doing my entire life- and my Dad is on top of that list- so I take it on myself, I always have. This is my attempt to stop doing so.

So just briefly say he is nasty or abusive or some one word, then go or hang up. Do not wait for something differtent from him.
-There is absolutely no such thing as briefly saying anything to my dad. It only takes 10 seconds for him to abuse me. It doesnt take long for him to let me know Im crazy. Count how long it takes to say this Here we go again- what 5 seconds? How about you mean youre not over that yet? 10 seconds? Thats brief enough for me to justify not putting myself in harms way. I dont have to wait for something different- Im not going to get something different. I never have. I have no reason to think this time would be any different.

You say you "love" your grandmother and you "love" your father.
I do. They are my family. There is nothing wrong with that. I recognize that my patterns are unhealthy, thats why Im here. Im not going to stop loving them b/c Im codependent. I have made excuses for their behavior in the past and I'm doing my best to stop that.

Once again, I know you're trying to help me and I really do appreciate the time you've taken.