Ahhhhh, I think about this too.

How much can one body actually take?
How much should one body have to take?

I nearly died. I came as close as one can without actually crossing over. It took several pints of whole blood before they could do any testing to see why I was dying.

So there is a limit. Is there a limit to the pain a body can take?
I think so. I will try to find the link to the pain doc who believes that many heart attacks found in pain patients are due to stress on the heart during severe pain situations.

Don't know if this is your topic. If I am not on the right track, let me know. I will try harder to understand.

I don't see anything wrong with talking about these things. Cancer patients are allowed too. We have terminal ills - in that they are with us till death. We should be allowed to talk about it too.

Just my humble opinion.

Jan I think each of us has to make the decision on our own about whether we want to have artificial life support measures. DNR orders and health care proxies appointing someone who understands and respects our wishes are part of this planning. I think most of us would not want to live on a ventilator forever but we have to decide how and when our wishes change. That is something that every adult should consider at some point in their life.

But I think what you are talking about is the realization that the treatments and side effects of those treatments are life threatening and affecting. The cancer patient who has to decide whether they want the treatment that may make them very ill or if they want to skip treatment and hope for more time when they are feeling good. Or the person who is in pain who has to decide if they will live in pain or take a treatment that may cause severe organ damage or even risk heart attacks, strokes or death.

No matter what the case we all have to make choices in life. My only suggestion is to get as much info as you can. List the pluses and minuses and talk it over with your doctors and family. Then make a decision and a plan.

Thanks.
There is no "wrong track" for discussion, sunnybun.
Tigg, you are right about our choices and how to go about making them.
Have already discussed with DH updating all out legal stuff, including extent of medical intervention - in which he and I. Differ greatly, so I'm glad you reminded me to designate someone else to legally make those calls.
Thanks again..........jc

Tigg is always good about giving great support. I open those topics when I see her reply.

here's my thoughts.long thought over the years like everyone in our little boat.
pain is a legitimate action of the body as a sel protection warning system..not designed for constant use.
pain in the no-shut off mode is a TREMENDOUS stressor.
over expanding years.the stress takes a continuous toll to the point that we all flirt with catastrophic failure .
this is why i DO think.a human definitely can die from pain without injury.
pain being the initial and continued .well the catalyst and then the sustainer of overbearing stress that ups the odds mightily.
bet there's 3'S SOMEWHERE CONCERNING SHORTENED LIFESPANS IN CP'ERS.
THAT'S MY CONDENSED VERSION AND MAY WELL ECHO MANY PREVIOUS ANSWERS AS I RUDELY/LAZILY DID NOT BUT SKIM FIRST.
OKAY.GOTTA GO.
wow.just looked up and i been hollerin.
didn't mean to be.
i'm gonna come back later to this as this one is really deep, i love and respect all you guys and i think this is an important subject.
and who better to productively discuss it?
PEACE.............t

numbers.not 3's..bet there's " numbers" somewhere

Hi Guys,

Really missed you all today. I've been sooooo worried about all of you and especially jc because of doc appt. yesterday. I have done some reading on the subject of pain (Can't remeber all I've read) and there are docs who believe people can die from pain. I spoke to my doc about it and he said not too worry that by the time my body would die from pain I would die from something else. I started collecting info on pain and pain theories. i can look at it for this topic. I think it is a very appropriate topic for all of us.

Before Christmas, my father was in the hospital with congestive heart failure for 4 months. Most of that he was in almost no pain. The docs kept trying to give him morphine, which actually stopped his breathing, and made him worse.

But he got to a point where he was bed-ridden. They were lifting him with this machine to take him to the bathroom, and the pain was so obvious. They were poking him daily to balance his heart meds with kidney failure. Because of the Cumadin, his skin was not healing and he was a mass of bruises.

He had a DNR order, but I think he was mostly thinking of heart attack, do not crack open the chest. At the end, he was very miserable, being bed ridden. I finally made the order to take no "unnatural" treatment. So the doc put him back on morphine which he hated. We had to bring in a different doc, an expert in palliative care. She said he did not need the morphine, but to give him water, because dehydration is very painful.

He passed peacefully two weeks after I stopped the active treatment. I went through a lot, that I had "pulled the plug" on him, esp. when he probably was not suffering as much as I do. I would not let them actively kill him, which is what his first doc was trying to do. But there does come a point when prolonging life is wrong. So he died naturally.

What does this have to do with chronic pain? Because sometimes the pain doesn't kill us, but I agree, the meds can be the culprit. Strange thing, as my dad got worse and worse, his skin actually healed up. The body is a marvelous thing, but it does wear out. And the stress on the mind is another issue. My dad was ready to go. I can only hope when my time comes, I will be ready. Some days when the pain is bad, I am ready. But I still want to keep on hanging on a bit more.

Seeing someone die (I was there when he passed) really gives you a different perspective on living. I loved my dad and the choice I made was very hard. But it was accepting that his heart was completely shot (we saw the MRIs) and every organ in his body was failing, including his mind.

I think we are all going to die one day. NO! I know we are all going to die one day. We have isolated death from our lives, and want to prolong our lives forever. I would never advocate euthanasia, or active killing, but letting someone stop medical treatments which are just prolonging a body which is calling out to die is another thing.

I hope this is not too off topic. Just saying, my pain isn't that bad yet, but I am sorry for those that are feeling that way, and I think jancam is right about acceptance. It is the final stage of grief. And our medical system really has made it hard for us to make choices. I am just grateful I didn't live 30 years ago, when there would have been no choices for RA treatment, except prednisone. As for my dad, he would have been gone at least 8 or 10 years earlier if it was not for meds. But most of that, he enjoyed and was happy, even if not healthy.

Not sure how you make the choice to live or die. Sometimes it is out of our hands.

In some circumstances it is the Will to Live alone that will keep us here and even bring us back from an out of body experience. Based on personal experiences, I believe God decides when our time has come but we do have free will to fight to stay here. This has happened to me on several occasions, but I do think that there is that one last final time when both you and God are ready.

I'll just throw in one more item from my personal experience. Catholic and other religious hospitals will not follow most DNR orders and they will not tell you. So ask while the patient is still able to make decisions or be moved if this is your wish.

Oh and you may not realize that you are in a catholic hospital..we had no idea.

WOW Tigg that is so dissapointing.

Why would anyone think continuing life with artificial means alone is actual life?????
It makes no sense to just feed and water a human like a plant.

When grandpop was dying we put a DNR. There was no hope except for maybe two to four weeks of laying in the bed hook up to tubes and machines but in terrible pain from pounding on his chest to revive him.

I will be sure not to go to a catholic hospital!!!!

Whoa, thanks tigg I need to know that. I'm in the bible belt. Half the. Clinics are mecy this or merciful that. Hospitals too. I'll do some research on this most defi itely........jc

Tigg,

How is that NOT lying to patients????

Thanks Tigg. that's good to know! I have been thinking a lot lately about a DNR and Health Care Proxy. I just don't have anyone I would trust to make the decision for me if I can't.

I have only felt like that once in my life and it was because of a side effect of being on opiates I woke up one day and wished I would not of woke up and continued to sleep and then I thought this in not right I should not have these thoughts and I went to the doctors the next day and we changed my medication and I never had that thought again.

I am just saying if these feelings are new it might be something else then really wanted to die it might be something that is chemical in the body.