Forever, no grandchildren that I know of. I don't pursue him - I decided to accept the statement that "silence IS an answer" when I heard it a couple of years back. I know our relationship can never be the same even if he comes back and I am not willing to walk on eggshells. He is the one who chose to cut himself off from the entire family and that time can never be made up. I can't turn off my love though and will try to move forward if he at some point decides he would like to resume a relationship. Honestly, the longer this goes on, I feel like he will never come back in to our lives.

mrsfits - I feel the same way about my ES. The longer the estrangement goes on, he will most likely never come back into our lives, unless, maybe DIL is out of the picture. The minister who married my ES and DIL told me that when he married his wife he was not allowed to see his family. It wasn't until after 28 years of marriage and 3 adult children that his wife divorced him and only then did he reconnect with his family and ask their forgiveness. Think of all the events that were missed and can never be redone?

My ES has been married 6 years now and it has been 6 years since we saw him, even though over the years I tried sending emails, birthday gifts, left voicemails -- all with no response.

dear LovingThem, I know the stunned feeling of finding out that your adult child who was once a loving child, becomes a stranger and vacates who they are to please a spouse or for other reasons. I suppose that our C are ours for the first 18 years, then have to be released so that they " can learn by our own mistakes" they requested of me and I complied. They have a new life that is their everything, and will do whatever it takes to keep it intact, including losing parents. I used to ask my ED if she somehow had to make a choice? No answer ever given. It's a heartbreak to us parents if they marry someone who's insecure, and they have to choose. I was surprised that my D dated him, she didn't see some red flags, and she was also re-bounding. I'm sorry that you and your GC will miss out on the love and memories, it makes no sense and is heart wrenching esp. when the wounds are fresh. Sorry that you have to go through it.

dear MomtoGuel, it sounds like you have been really patient and gracious with your ES and Dil, and left the door open, and offered a plan of resolution. I think it will take something life shattering for my EC-ren to ever
be loving and respectful towards me again, and without mutual love and respect, I don't want any more contact with them. I wish I could see the GC though. I had left a voicemail for ED in July, asking if they wanted to leave the GC here (as they once did 3 years ago for 2 days) and have some time for themselves. I added that I believe that I have much to add to GC's lives, differences in hobbies and interests that the other GP's don't have, that I felt would enhance their lives, but D said SHE didn't want to see me. I said I didn't expect she'd "want to see ME nor would I ask for that" , that they could just come in and see that the house is clean, safe, etc. as they did last time. I added that "keeping C from knowing their GP's just b/c you don't like them is not healthy, ask any therapist." She said I was "trying to GUILT HER," I replied "not in the least, please don't tell me my motives" (an ongoing problem for 12 years) and that my motive was to "express my feelings that I had a lot to add to their lives". I am finally bringing my truth into the dynamics, if there is even a chance to have dynamics! and have given up eggshell-walking 2-1/2 years ago, and am happy to have done that! I don't think grown C respect parents who eggshell walk around them, I know it earns contempt.

Back on point ! regarding having obtained MYSELF the address of where a certain GC lives/moved to recently, not about concern over getting a reply (definitely I would think NO REPLY), not about if I SHOULD send something--it's a 'BOUNDARY' question:

One EC did provide an address, one has not. I do send things for the GC from time to time to the address I was given. I usually hear nothing back, and then have to wait awhile to heal enough to risk the same rudeness again.

BUT my concern/question is: is it a BOUNDARY TRANSGRESSION to send a card to the GC whose address I have very deliberately NOT been given? This is what I would appreciate hearing any input on. Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.

** I wonder if this 'boundary' question re: sending a card or gift to the address of your GC that you were deliberately not given, being an EP, is addressed in the ettiquette books written in the 1940's and 1950's?

As I read our posts, I truly do not know how we would get through estrangement without the Lord. It is clearly not His plan and it is of the enemy. Jesus must be very saddened by estrangement of families and how the "world" is living today disobeying and ignoring God and His Word.

Our ED (22) is unmarried and has no children. Her choices have been tragic in the past 1 1/2 years. I cry over all that she gave up and lost. Besides family, she gave up a beautiful vocal ministry where she was being used by God. This is why I call it tragic. She does have some mental issues. Our ED was adopted as a young child but is not in anyway any less our child than our 3 biological sons. In fact, I poured more into her, I believe. I have apologized to my sons, for this. They understood and did not feel badly towards me for it. They have normal thinking brains where she does not. We believe that she has to hit a bottom before the Lord can reach her, again (prodigal son)

forever, Personally, I would have to pray a lot before sending something to someone who's address I was not given. You said it was deliberate. It is very tempting and I can see where you would want to reach out. At this time, I would not do it if it were me. I believe there will be a time in the GC's lives (how old is she?) when they will want to know. They may still be believing their parents and their lies, sad to say.

God bless all of us good mothers and grandparents. The Lord said we are worthy to be honored.

lindajoan, i know you're right about respecting the "hint" of not being given an address. I guess that I needed to hear it.. This Gc is only 1-1/2 years old, I've never met her, and she lives around 3-4 miles away from me. When this ED lived 2,000 miles away, I was given the address, but the estrangement hadn't degraded to this degee. Now they live 3-4 miles away. I'm not the type to want to be anywhere where I'm not wanted, so giving me an address would NEVER mean any risk of my dropping in.

The other ED lives further away, and I used to be close to her firstborn, esp, age 11 now. This D gave up some of the good that she WAS in her character, for a man, or so it seemed to me. I never would have predicted that. She also had a beautiful voice, and her singing stopped after meeting him. Bashing her child's Gpa for sending a Halloween outfit for his first GC, on his first Halloween, 10 years ago was heart-breaking to me. because that was not the D I knew for 20 years. She was going along with her H, because he hadn't forgiven his dad for being an absent dad in his shildhood. I guess no second chances for those who error, in his book. Hopefully he will do nothing in his life that requires forgiveness by others. But D chose to parrot H's bitterness, and so I saw the passing down of prejudice and intolerance to the next generation. I told my D to "be careful how you treat your parents because you are teaching your C how to treat you when they grow up".

It is crushing for a mother to see her C make mistakes that will likely be harmful and the cause of pain and regret later on in life. I too, regret much about the choices I made and values I had at the ages of 15 to 35, in particular. But that is how certain strong willed types, like myself, need to learn what is life-giving vs. life destroying. My grown but young C asked me to let them "make their own mistakes", and of course I had to comply. A low self esteem as I had was a contributor to self destructive behavior. So as I did, I am letting them make their own mistakes, I never thought those mistakes would be so hurtful to ME. These traits could also be genetically passed along, which God knows about, and isn't even that much a reflection of their upbringing. I'm not saying it was pre-destined, but it could be a path of least resistance. I see that my D has the ability to become numb to pain for decades, and not deal with it, just like her father was able to do. I just never though she would be numb toward ME. Or bash me either. I don't believe all is lost. If they are snard by satan for awhile, if they are meant to be God's, He will get them in the end. I am just certain of it. I know by the life I led. A child who loved what was honest and good in a family of lies and manipulation, a teenager who gave it all up to become self-will run riot, then the adult who cried over all the destructive choices, and returned to the light, to Jesus, Who knew she would.

mrsfits, is that a jack russel terrier?

foreverlov.... our ES and DIL and GD lived about 10 miles from us. Some of our friends told us to just go knock on their door but I was afraid of rejection. My DIL's uncle did just that (brother of her birth mom) and stood outside saying he just wanted to see his niece and grand-niece (he brought his wife along). Finally my ES came to the door and said "go away; I have to protect my family."

We aren't sure from what. This was a loving uncle as she was growing up (absolutely nothing bad happened) but he was the brother of her mother whom she hates. She hated her mother for setting boundaries so left home at 14 to live with her dad and step mom and never spoke to her birth mom again. I know her birth mom - a wonderful woman.

I write this to show how mixed up our children are and how they are swayed by someone. I was reading about Samson and Delilah this morning.. It made me think of my ES and DIL.

I think you are best off to take all the gifts you have for grandchildren and put them in their own individual boxes to give to them when they are older and come looking for you. Sending gifts now - well, I'm guessing your ED and SIL will pretend the gifts are from them, not you.

Yup, that is our Jack Russell, Cali. He is a very busy guy!

My DH loves Jack Russells. They are very friendly.

mrsfits, we had a Jack Russell in the 90's and we loved her, Jackie, she was a riot. She could jump up into your arms from the floor, they are amazing athletes and so entertaining.

norske, I have a pomegranate tree, and the ED 3-4 miles away LOVES them, and they are about $2-3 each in the store. When she lived 2,000 miles away, I would mail them to her and that was fine. She would thank me, even, but no other communication or friendliness.

What I really want to do is drop off a bag of them on her porch--but I guess that would be a boundary transgression. Not once have I ever tried to visit her, and they moved back to my area 2-3 years ago. I did leave a potted tree that she left me before moving away for 4 years to babtysit, on her porch, and got back in my car immediately. There was no thanks for the tree. I wan't invited to the baby shower a few years ago, but my mom who can be pretty insulting at times attended with my sister, who has severe mental illness and is a very angry and aggressive person. But ED threw them out of her life too after the baby was born, and I am relieved for the baby. My ED forsaked (is that a word?) a huge promised inheritance from the aunt in doing that--but she put the welfare of her child (it's her first baby) above the money. That made me proud.

I don't want to send gifts to the 1-1/2 year old GD, who I haven't met, and probably never wilI. My D would be angry. If I'm ever invited to meet her, that would really be the start of our relationship--I suffered too much when the other GC I so loved and was bonded with was taken away for years. I still love them all and would give my life for any of them.

I will play it by ear over time, and if I ever get an address I will start with a card here and there to test the water. I sure feel bad about her not enjoying the fruit though.

Now I might be tempted to leave a bag of pomegranates on her door step. Unless she is completely cold-hearted, it should stir some memories of love in her heart. But if you aren't supposed to know the address, she might be angry as to how you found her.

Gosh, isn't it a shame that we have to dissect everything so much when it is just an act of love for your children? We should be able to just do a good deed when we think of it.

Yes, Jacks are very athletic! Ours bounces around like a pogo stick when my DH gets home. He loves to chase lizards outside and can jump as high as the window sills sometimes. He is full of energy! Right now though he is on "limited activity" because he has an issue with one of his toes. He is going stir crazy!

I have not given up on my eds and continue to love each of them unconditionally. that being said if they are not communicating it is pretty difficult to continue to be a parent I once was. Absolutely i would welcome either or all of them with open arms. As it is now the Lord is the only one who can change their hearts. I cannot change their hearts.

I agree it is a two way street.