It is true that none of us are perfect. I know I certainly am not perfect. The Bible does say "judge not" but there are also places where it says if you see "a brother" sinning, to point it out to them and try to restore them. In other places it says not to have anything to do with them. It is so hard for me to know what to do. I am not as good at quoting the scriptures as some of you are. i know scripture, but sometimes I forget exactly where in the Bible it says what. Forgive my ignorance on that part. I just know that I continually pray for my ES (as well as all of my children) and also for the Lord to point out anything I need to be doing, or not doing. I really want to do what He wants me to do. This is just so hard. I hate estrangement.

The Word is clear on not judging lest we be judged. God is a God of love and grace. He is a God of multiple chances. The story of our EC and our estrangement journeys are not over. The best thing, I believe, is to love God and others. That is the commandment. "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and strength and thy neighbor as thyself." Our neighbor is others.

I believe it is God's work to bring our EC to Him or back to Him and bring them to repentance to Him and family. Our work is to love our EC (not their sin) and pray for them.

And agrand, it would be a whole other matter if she were to say "you know mom, dad, I really don't believe in all this Christianity stuff. I've though about it and it just doesn't make any sense to me so though I appreciate that you have done your best to raise me with what YOU think is right and have been good parents and given me a wonderful, loving home because of your beliefs, I just really don't believe any of it." I know what the Bible says but I believe that when you really love someone it doesn't matter what their faith is. Nor does it matter if you have sex without being married to them." But agrand, she still claims Christ and says she is following Him. Even said "why would God put him in my life if he didn't want me to marry him?" I replied, "You are blaspheming to say God wants you to marry an atheist. That is completely contrary to His word and He is the same yesterday, today and forever."

If she were to completely disavow the faith, we would be treating her in another manner. We even gave her ample opportunity to disavow it in that we predicated our admonishment of her with "As a Christian, you...." and she never disavowed it. I guess when it comes down to it, I hope she truly IS a Christian and in a phase of rebellion because I know that even if I don't ever see her again in this life, I will in the next. If she disavowed the faith I would not be estranged from her in this life but unless she comes to know Christ, I will be forever estranged from her in the next. So, bottom line, she would not be estranged from us in anyway if she was a self-professed nonbeliever. As you have stated, we are not to cut off relations with those who are not believers.

Sorry, not to cut off relations unless we are suffering abuse from them as so many here have and are. I don't think it is unloving to cut off relations for biblical reasons or for reasons of self-protection and protection of the other vulnerable parties involved.

Mine did not disavow, either. Still claims to be a Christian, and I sincerely hope he is. I have said this in other threads before, and in my son's case, I really think he must have mental problems. I know for certain the woman he is married to has some. So to some degree, I guess they can't help if they are sick in that way. I would never reject them because of it, but the mental cruelty they have inflicted on us was beginning to make me physically sick. My doctor was concerned for me even. Even so, I still did not initiate the estrangement. What happened in my case (I know you others have heard this before but this is for Butterfly) is my son got married to a woman with severe mental issues. We were shocked, because our son did not seem to be the type who would go for someone like that. During their dating years, they would break up on again off again, and she even called the wedding off several times, only to go back together. That sort of thing. He would run to us and beg for help and what to do, so of course since he asked, we told him what we thought and that it was a bad idea, and he should not be with her. Then he would run back to her and tell her what we said! Anyway, they got married, and we backed off and never said another word about them breaking up. Well, a year ago January he finally had enough of her and came running to us again, saying he wanted a divorce because she was truly crazy, abusive, and he was fearful for their baby. He asked for money for a divorce, and we gave it to him. He took the money, left, went back to her, and that is when he completely estranged and stopped talking to us. For awhile, I kept trying to get him back, but the cruelty was just too much so I finally stopped and I detached. I have not given up, but I did accept it. But I did not initiate the estrangement, but I am not trying to get him back, either. I just can't. It was causing too much pain.

Would you all say that God is NOT a God of love because He said the following to Israel in Jeremiah 7

…13"And now, because you have done all these things," declares the LORD, "and I spoke to you, rising up early and speaking, but you did not hear, and I called you but you did not answer, 14therefore, I will do to the house which is called by My name, in which you trust, and to the place which I gave you and your fathers, as I did to Shiloh. 15"I will cast you out of My sight, as I have cast out all your brothers, all the offspring of Ephraim. 14therefore, I will do to the house which is called by My name, in which you trust, and to the place which I gave you and your fathers, as I did to Shiloh. 15"I will cast you out of My sight, as I have cast out all your brothers, all the offspring of Ephraim.

And then He told Jeremiah in the next verse

16"As for you, do not pray for this people, and do not lift up cry or prayer for them, and do not intercede with Me; for I do not hear you. 17"Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?…

Jesus said "If you love ME (emphasis mine) you will keep my commandments."

And also "Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their SON OR DAUGHTER emphasis mine) more than me is not worthy of me."

So yes, we are to always love but we are to love Christ above all and love others according to His word. It is then the highest love to deny youself (loss of relationship, job, or whatever) when we love people enough to do what is necessary to bring professing believers BACK to walking with Christ and to witness to those who do not know Christ regardless of the cost. It is not loving to enable a believer to continue in their sin. Nor is is it loving to profess to the world that it doesn't matter what you believe or practice for the bible says

1 Cor 6:9
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.…

I am soooo tired of people (Christians especially) saying we are being judgmental when we point out what GOD says about such things when we are showing them what HE says and He IS the Judge! He is telling us what is sin so that we WILL not sin, so we order our lives and our hearts according to His word. That our only hope is Christ and His shed blood for the times we have sinned. It is unloving to let the converted go unaccountable and it is unloving NOT to tell unbelievers that their only hope is in Christ.

That is like someone telling an officer who has pulled them over to kindly warn them that they are breaking the law by speeding "You are being soooo judgemental" and then speeding off in front of him! God (the lawmaker and judge and redeemer) is warning us what is sin because He LOVES us and wants us to be blessed by living a life of obedience out of love for the one who bought our salvation and to warn the unconverted how serious sin is and that they have no hope apart from Christ.

The best thing about our Christian support group is that we can all share how God is leading us and helping us. We are all at different stages of estrangement. The most important thing we can each do, individualily, is pray for God to guide us in the steps he would have us to each take.

There is no one right answer. Pray then obey. God bless each mother represented here and help their EC turn to you or back to you. We love you and our EC.

lindajoan....I realize you are trying to stay 'neutral' but the stages we are all at have nothing at all to do with how each person handles estrangement.

First off Butterfleye......you are a very passionate person for the Lord and a lot like me. I really struggle immensely with people who profess to be Christians and yet do not 'walk the talk'. I avoid them like a disease because if a person fellowships with them gradually they will let the lukewarm lifestyle affect them. I would rather be around someone who challenges me in love to grow daily. The scripture is speaking from God to these particular people. But I feel there is a fine line when we point out or exhort one another but what I see is AC who may have at some point given their lives to the Lord but are slowly sliding away. They can play this game just so long before they do the unforgiving sin which is blaspheme the Holy Ghost. People can easily profess to have walked away in their actions and still no all the 'right words' to say. Alot of what you say is true however, IMO I see one flaw......we all need to learn to let our AC (or anyone) go and make their own choices. Unless we are all "perfect" we must keep our focus on our own sins and work on them. God has not died and appointed any of us as His replacement. Your job is finished and now you must let your AC live their lives and trust, repent and have faith in God as we 'work out our salvation with fear and trembling" Philippians 2:12King James Version....Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Agrand.....I have to say that in the Bible we did not witness the prodical son walking down the road with his dad chasing after him begging him to return. Case in point, no matter how much we fuss and fret we just cannot 'force' these AC to be what we wish they were and have us in their lives. We have to remember this most of all.....they do not need US they need GOD and my hope and prayer is that they realize this before it is too late and take their last breath. Playing games with their salvation and God is a dangerous thing and should never be taken lightly. We cannot 'love' our children to salvation, it is a gift not of works.

Poodle.....I use Biblegateway on the internet to read the Bible .... I know scripture from the Holy Spirit bringing it back too me but sometimes I don't know where it lives in the Bible =)

Bella and butterfleye, I appreciate your comments. You don't know much about me and you are misinterpreting what I'm saying. Part of why my son is not speaking to me is that I am not passive when it comes to very important matters. However, there are some things that are none of our business once our children are grown, and we have to let them grow up and make their own choices. That's all I'm saying.

Bella, What I personally mean by stages of estrangement is mostly how I have changed over the last few years that our ED (now 24) has left home. At first, I would have done anything to get her back home and spent much time trying. Over the years the Lord has worked in my heart to change me. My main focus is now on our ED going back to God first. I believe He is the key and the only one who can change hearts. That includes the hearts and ways of our EC.

A wise Christian friend saw my dilemma during the first year our ED left. She saw the time and effort I was putting in on spinning my wheels to bring estrangement to an end. I was setting up meetings with pastors and trying to work my way into our ED's world. It became o futile project. One Sunday, knowing the kind of week I planned ahead on working on the "estrangement project" she looked me in the eye and said, "Linda, make prayer your project." I was grateful for her tough love to me.

Not to say I did not fail at times and need reminders but a new stage in the estrangement journey had begun for me.

Lindajoan.....Thanks so much for sharing this. I also thought at first "there must be something I can do to change this whole mess" but then I realized like you that I needed to "let go and let God".

I have a "healthy" fear of the Lord...."the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". One day I was also planning my strategy of what I could do next to 'change' this. You see...the biggest thing with our 2 EC is 'resentment and revenge' and we know why. They are out to try to prove us wrong that they both made a huge mistake in their choice of partners in life. So their revenge is all the disrespect, meanness, rudeness and even going so far as to assume I am mentally ill. Once our DIL called me a 'psycho' when we went camping with them. Our granddaughter who was 4 at the time kept hitting me. Finally I told her to 'stop being mean'. Well our DIL started yelling at me and called me that. (this is the one our son told us not to worry, she was a Christian...that was a joke, people from church enlightened us about her past) She really is one sick person a huge sneaky deceiver with no friends.

Anyway.....I was in my planning mode and all of a sudden it occurred to me that "what if all my actions are interfering with what God is trying to work out with them in their lives?"

Absolutely Bella, I am a much slower learner than my DH. He would constantly tell me, "'Let God handle it." Sometime I got mad. He was right.

I am sorry you had to deal with so much disrespect from your DIL. You do not deserve that. No parent does.

yes but we mothers are always the "fixers" and my husband did not understand me either.... =)

This is true!

What sin do you say, "I'm not speaking to you anymore."? Sin is sin. Only humans make 1 sin worse than the other. Yes, you quoted a verse above, but Paul was directing that towards a community where they needed to be informed. As far as disciplining by removing that's for the church and mainly for a leader that's not leading by example.
Maybe others in your family are being led to talk to ED. How can she process anything if she only has non-believers to talk to? People make mistakes, but once you point it out to them, it's their choice if they're going to continue it or not. I'm glad your son repented, but some need more time for God to convict them.
My ED came back after she married her bf. He professes to be a Christian, but he doesn't seem like one. Still, I'm not to judge. She left with her bf. I sent messages that I hoped she still loved God. I'm not sure how much those messages played in her coming back. I believe God just got ahold of her heart when the time was right.
God told me to love my daughter no matter what. Like David loved Absalom even though he was trying to kill him.
I also believed if I had shown my daughter more unconditional love she may not have taken off with bf. I was so preaching what to do and what not to do that she probably felt so much guilt she didn't want to be around me. When she saw that I would forgive her she felt comfortable having a relationship with me.