Well, my EC is my second son, and I have an older son, a younger son, and a daughter as well. The three of them, as well as my husband, support me. I will have to say that we did not initiate the estrangement, exactly. But we could not support our ES's relationship with the woman he was with, either. My situation is a little different. If you were to ask my ES (and his wife as well) they would tell you that oh yes, they are most certainly Christians. But what they have done since they got together is systematiclly insult, degrade, and attack almost every single family member, as well as most of my son's friends. She is a bipolar, borderline narcissist (been diagnosed) and from the get go she was threatened by us. She had been married 2-3 times prior to meeting my son(the numbers vary because one was considered an annulment) but even so. And they lived together before marriage and she also was pregnant before the wedding. But that wasn't even the issue, although we did not believe in living together before marriage. It was the way she treated us and the lies and manipulations she did. But anyway, there are some family members (namely my sister in law, and my mother to some degree) who support them, and think I am being too hard on the DIL. My sister in law even told me once that my husband and I are "such hard-asses". Those were her exact words. Anyway, I commiserate with you.

This is difficult because it is very personal. By that, I mean it is between a person and the Lord and how they are led to handle a situation. For this very reason, unless something is so clearly opposite to God's Word we do not tell others they are wrong in our support group.

Breaking ties due to the sin of another (including our EC) is a personal choice. We surely do not condone sin and we can let our EC know we do not approve of their choices based on God's Word. How we move forward with that relationship is according to how we are led by God. The EC is rebelling more against God than against us. With that said, it is extremely hurtful when our children make choices contrary to how they were raised to believe. They will pay the consequences and learn hard lessons. Often, as much as we want to we can not spare them these lessons.

We can keep them in prayer before, during, and after their choices are made.

Why in the world are you worried about your family so much and what THEY think? IMO....it is really none of their business.....you will never win that battle. Others just do not understand what hurt EC cause me so they can have their own opinions for all I care.....just my opinion.

Linda....I will add something to what you said. After our ED graduated from High school she started to sleep around, drink and stay out all hours....we both had to go to work the next day. My husband gave her a choice, she could either abide by our 'rules' or move out....she moved out. Of course now she says "we kicked her out".....but was her choice. We do not condone that lifestyle under our roof or any place else.

If I have nobody supporting me and I know God is with me....then why do I care if anyone else is?

Butterfleye, I understand your concern for your children. I will give you my opinion based on being raised in a very strict Christian family, and being a Christian myself.

When our children are under our roofs they have to abide by our rules, because it is our home. Once they are grown they have the freedom to make their own choices and they will need to live with the consequences of those choices. It is not for us to pass judgement on them. I'm not going to quote scripture, I'm just giving you my own opinion.

I also went through a period of rebellion when I strayed very far from God. My family turned against me, and that hurt me greatly. What they didn't know was that the Holy Spirit was working on me. They did not need to do the work of the Holy Spirit. The hurt I felt still lingers. In fact, even though I'm now living a solid Christian life, they still reject me (I'm talking about my family). This rejection has not drawn me back to God except for the fact that I have had to rely on Him to get me through the pain of the rejection.

Turning away from your children will not draw them back to God. They will form an opinion of God as one who judges harshly, loves conditionally, and the concept of salvation through grace will be lost. They will feel they need to work to measure up in order to achieve eternal life.

I have six siblings and have seen this pattern in each of them, and me. Fortunately for me, I have gone through a situation that forced me to look inward and upward, and I discovered a God far different than the one I was taught about. The God I serve loves unconditionally, knows I have human frailties, is patient with me, and has me in the shelter of his wing. But, I had to reach this place myself. All the proof from the Bible, the judgements, the finger pointing, none of that worked... it just drove me farther away.

I know you love your children and are worried for their souls. You've done your job and it's time to let God do his job. He is a far better parent than we.

Bella....not "worried" about what my other children (or anyone else for that matter) think; it's the effect that it has had on the family dynamics that is so hard when they are not supporting the actions you have taken hopefully to make the offender "feel" an earthly reflection of a spiritual reality....that they have gone in another direction away from Godly conduct of their spiritual family as well. Not only is it heart wrenching what the offender has done but even the family that is left is divided. I believe it has a lesser impact on the offender when the family is not united in holding them accountable. I WANT our ed to be so miserable that she really considers what she is doing (much like the prodigal son did) and repent and return. Now if she marries this atheist and then realizes what she has done and repents, though she must remain married to him, she can still repent of her sin in this and we will be praising God for her repentance and welcome her back into our family life (atheist husband not withstanding). It's just that the whole thing has become a double sorrow in what she has decided and the division that now exists in the family regarding it. My consolation in this should be that at least the rest of the nuclear family reflects what I so desired; a loving, unified, close-knit Christian family but, sadly, I have no such consolation.

And lindajoan, I do accept that some of my other children consider it "a personal choice" how to treat someone who is living in unrepentant sin. But the fact that they consider it such after having been shown in scripture how we are to relate to such a one to bring them to repentance and they reject that, is more daggers in my heart. "Accepting" the reality of their decision doesn't make it hurt less and doesn't keep the elephant out of the room whenever we communicate with them.

Honestly, it hurts more to have to cut ties because of her living in unrepentant sin than it would be if she were abusing us. I love her more than just an earthly daughter, I love her as a sister in Christ and I care about her relationship with Christ enough to suffer the pain of estrangement in the hopes it will bring her back to walking with Him. Parents who are estranged from their ac because of the ac's abuse of them, are cutting ties to protect themselves (and possibly other children at home) from the pain and abuse. Parents who cut ties because of an ac living in unrepentant sin are willing to suffer whatever pain they themselves have to suffer during the estrangement in order to bring their ec back to the fellowship of not only their earthly family but their Forever Family as well.

Butterfleye, I respect your decision, but I am living proof (as are my six siblings) your stance is not going to do your daughter any good. It is going to drive her further away from you, and further away from God.

Again, each parent must follow how they believe the Lord is leading them.

For me, having an ED and experiencing the pain of estrangement I would not choose to estrange from adult children (my 3 adult sons) who do not choose it. It is not that they have led perfect lives. One has even had a drug problem that God has healed him from although he is still not living for the Lord. DH and I chose to love him unconditionally, provide help, and lots of prayer. Of course, he knew we did not approve of his sin. We must let God work in His life and pray.

agrand, I am so very sorry your family still rejects you after your repentance and turning back to God. I soooo don't know where they are coming from and they are sinning in this!
But you have to understand, I am taking this position because of what the Bible says about how we are to handle such people, children or not. I am not doing it because I think it will "work".. I am doing it out of obedience to the word, HOPING that God will bring them back but knowing He may not. There is no method guaranteed to bring someone back to Christ and living a Christian life..

Having said that, we had a son who was living with a girl (in another country) and when we found out, we confronted him with it and explained what we would have to do in light of it if he did not repent. Well, he did repent and married the girl (also a professing Christian) and they attend church now.

I am fully aware that there are two camps of thought in this group when dealing with wayward ac. But I also KNOW that no particular method is going to guarantee neither a positive outcome nor a negative one. I also know that regardless of what "works" or doesn't "work" we are called to be faithful to the Lord and His word and He will work out His plans the way he sees fit regardless of what we do or do not do. I also know that people DO return to God and His ways( a biblical example is the man in Corinthians who had his father's wife and was excommunicated) when Christian discipline is exercised. Not always do they repent, but this is none of our affair, we are called to be obedient regardless.We are also called to receive back the repentant with open arms. (how much more so with such joy as our own dear children and siblings!). I am saddened that your family did the one without the other and you have been so hurt by that but they are very very wrong and they are the ones now that need to repent of how they have sinned against you AND the Lord in this.

We are called to be faithful and obedient in all circumstances and the results are His to order.

And agrand, I do do this in love because my desire for them from their conception is that they walki with the Lord. I would not be loving them truly, with a godly love and not a mere mother's love if I did not do what God has called me to do in hopes of bringing them back to The Fold. That is exactly why God (through Paul) told us why we should do this, out of a sincere desire for them to be reconciled to God and thereby being reconciled to the family of God whether their earthly family is part of that family or not. We shared our sorrow with our son over what he was doing and what it was forcing us to do out of LOVE for him and his relationship to the Lord We did not point a finger at him in judgement but rather through tears we implored him as we have our daughter. Our son has returned to the Lord but our daughter has not. (yet). But it's not over till it's over (death) so we live in hope and keep our eyes on the horizon for their return.

And I just want to add that we have always dealt with the discipline of our children by taking them to God's word and showing them what He has to say about what they have done BEFORE we followed through with the discipline. Disciplining them even as children was always a difficult thing for us and we did it with heavy hearts that our children saw. So they knew then as they SHOULD know now, that we are not disciplining them out of revenge, or punishment or because they didn't follow OUR rules but rather because they were sinning against God. They therefore have no grounds to feel hurt as if we have done them wrong.

Butterfleye, I respect your opinion, even if I disagree.

I see nowhere in Scripture where Jesus excommunicated anyone because they were not saved. He ate with sinners, he talked to the woman at the well, he stood up for the woman being stoned. I do not see any situation in which Jesus turned people away because they did not believe. The only people I see him speaking very harshly towards are the pharisees (sp?).

You can state your opinion in love, and make it clear that you disagree with the choices your children make, but if you do not treat them as adults who are free to choose how they live, they will inevitably turn away from you. Any decision to follow Christ based on pressure will never be a sincere decision.

Again, this is my opinion.

I want to make sure that I understand what I'm responding to.

So, you mean that the children who are not living their lives according to how you feel they should, are not allowed to participate in family gatherings such as Christmas, Thanksgiving, etc.? Since they are estranged from you, they are therefore not welcome within the family?

You are soooo very right, agrand! Scripture DOESN'T say we are to excommunicate NON believers! Nonbelievers by their NATURE (unregenerate) are not IN communion (fellowship) with the family of God because having not been born again, they are not children of God. I am speaking of those who are born again. My ed was baptized, confirmed, and a professing and practicing Christian before she headed down this path! As far as I know, she IS what she says she is, a Christian though she is rebelling. The son who HAD been estranged was the same. The rebellion of the Prodigal Son did not, could not, change the FACT that he was his father's son but his rebellion separated him from the fellowship of his family until he repented and was joyfully received back. We did not approach our ec with opinion, we approached them with the truth of God as expressed in His word, hoping that the power of His word, not the power of our persuasion or any other action, would turn their hearts toward Home. And as I have said, we did so in tears and a broken heart, not with a judgmental tone.

The focus of our familiy's faith and practice has always been based on TRUTH as revealed in His word and NOT opinion. God leaves certain things up to opinion such as how humans like their steak or whether or not they put sugar in their tea, but in matters regarding such things as sexual morality, and whether or not a Christian marries a nonbeliever, He does not allow for opinion, adult or not; we are to do what HE says.

And as far as turning His back on those who did not believe, no, He went to people everywhere,spoke truth, and moved on. When he sent the disciples to do the same He DID tell them if they and their message was not received, they were to shake the dust off their feet and move on. But you do well to point out how He treated the pharisees; they KNEW the truth and yet were not walking in its ways nor did they accept Him and His message. As you recall, He was VERY harsh on them because they were not following God's ways but more often their opinions which gave rise to their legalism. Opinions regarding the Christian walk gives rise to legalism and that is why we need to be careful to follow the revealed will of God in His word.

My ES also professes to be a Christian and was baptized as well. And yet he continually rejects his own parents. It is hard to understand how someone who is a Christian can do this. It has made me wonder if his conversion when he was younger was genuine. Only God knows the answer to this, and all I can do is pray for him.

It is not hard to understand a believer committing a sin as none of us are perfect. But yes, poodlegirl, it is very hard to understand a believer committing a sin and committing more sin to cover it up or to just plain continue in that sin being unrepentant. I think of King David. Wow, was he messed up when he sinned in sleeping with another man's wife and THEN tried to cover it up by arranging for the husband to be killed! But when confronted with His sin he repented though he still had to suffer the consequences of the resultant child dying. And I still can't figure out Solomon who, as the Bible states, was the wisest man and YET he took all those heathen women to be wives and concubines and even built temples to their gods and participated in their ceremonies!!!!! What a mess!!! We certainly can't judge a person's heart but we are called to be discerning of their actions. A bad apple is still an apple though it is rejected for use. A true Christian remains a Christian though their actions are bad and are therefore useless to the Kingdom and can contaminate the body of believers if they are allowed to continue their behaviour within the household of God. We have to take someone at their word that they are a Christian but we must also discern their actions and judge those and respond to those, according to God's word, always in the hope that they will be reconciled to God and consequently, to His family.

I tend to live my life differently. I believe in looking after the log in my own eye and not worrying about the speck in my brother's (or son's or daughter's) eye. I have enough to work on in my own life. The Holy Spirit is there to work in the lives of others. All I can do is work on myself.

We all interpret Scripture differently and have our own understanding of who God is, and how we are to interact with others.

I wish you well, butterfleye.