I'm sorry, I don't know of any groups geared toward saving a marriage here on DS. It's hard to know what to say w/o knowing what's going on. Are either of you abusive (physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, sexually)? Are either of you addicted to mind altering substances? Are either of you in recovery but not really doing anything to work on your behavior? Is someone cheating, lying, stealing, etc.?

Has she said what's bothering her? Have you REALLY listened? Has she REALLY listened to you?

Love is an action verb, NOT a feeling. You have ruled out a lot of options, so it's really hard to know what would work for you.

Also (and this is IMPORTANT)... If she's done, you need to let go, grieve, heal and move on.


Based on what you have said, I would say that, based on your user name, you are probably both seriously codependent. That can and does ruin relationships, especially if neither one is willing to do their own work.

Each of us is responsibile ONLY for our own happiness, not anyone else's, including our spouses.


My suggestion is that YOU join a CoDA group (CoDependents Anonymous). CoDA is a 12 step program that focuses on the member's part of a healthy relationship. Here is their website. http://coda.org/ Also, I'm pretty sure there is a CoDA group here on DS.

CoDA is NOT marriage counseling.

IMHO marriage counseling doesn't help until and unless both spouses have been in individual counseling for at least a year preferably two. That's because each person brings with them all their 'junk in the trunk' that they haven't already addressed, worked thru and healed. Without healing that, nothing really is going to change in the marriage. And, if one or both are addicts or abusers, then marriage counseling rarely works, if ever.

That all being said, it's really hard to save a marriage w/o help.

Friends and family are NOT a good choice. They could very well do more damage than good because they aren't trained. Even ministers, priests, etc., unless they have the appropriate therapy credentials, don't make good marital or even individual counselors for anything outside of religion and can cause more harm than good.

Either way, the ONLY way things will get better for you is if YOU do your own inner work.

Thanks for the investing the time and effort in such a thoughtful response. You are right that I gave you no information to base any judgements. Neither of us are abusers or have addictive personalities. She is a wonderful woman, wife and mother despite any faults and I hope I am the same. My name was selected with some bitterness but mostly as a statement that she believed I was exclusively responsible for her happiness which you so wisely point out (and I completely agree) actual comes from within oneself. As for the possibility of my own codependency... I am open to such criticism. I was raised in a very close family and my parents showed me how to balance a dedication to each other and oneself. We are close to this day and it is a model I would be blessed to achieve half the love and closeness in my own family. Do I sacrifice for my wife and children? Happily, but always with an eye towards improvement not glorifying each and every sacrifice.

Without question there are always things I can work on to improve myself. In fact when my wife has her own doubts about me is when I tend to the more time to focus on myself. This seems to benefit both of us but my motivation would be regardless of any reaction from her.

My wife is somewhat opposite from me. I tend to be the compassionate sensitive type and she comes across as direct and cold to many people. I know her better and see the heart of gold underneath the rough exterior. Surprisingly, I tend to analyze and set goals to improve myself and my environment whereas she is a victim of any of her own negative emotion. If she is stressed or unhappy, she looks to her environment, the marriage being the biggest component, for the reason. Communication is so important to me in order to analyze the situation and I am a better listener than talker (and a little better writer than talker). Unfortunately thought she feels the marriage is causing her unhappiness she cannot explain what of the marriage or why it makes her feel that way. She does feel something is wrong with her to be happy and then a few months later unhappy with the marriage. She wants to seek therapy help for herself though to help her justify her feelings, not improve them.

Letting her go and moving on? In some ways that would be easier. My 4 children (2 college student step sons and 2 preteen sons with her) are unaware of any instability in their family. Of course they are aware of mom seeming to be distant or irritable certain times of the year. Finally I do truly love the wonderful qualities embodied in my wife for when she is in synch I experience life in a way much enhanced to even the happiest times on my own. 15 years invested forming a wonderful family and looking forward to life through the stages with her is too much to lose by not trying with every fiber in me. It cannot be "fixed" but can be continually improved by committing to a process of self and team adjustments. "In love" is most definitely a feeling, but "true" love only comes when the choice to commit to loving another is tested by challenges and those partners so choosing do not fear the next inevitable challenge that will come. The Christian family man in me dreams of this true love with my wife, but the realist in me knows i cannot get us there through my actions alone.

Please know that nothing I said was meant in any way to criticize. I, myself, am codependent. Most people are to some extent. And many times it increases in marriage.

In terms of my saying letting her go and moving on, just to clarify, that was said in case she has said she wants a divorce and isn't open to trying to saving the marriage.

You mentioned that she is a victim of her own negative emotions. That is more common that you might think. You might be interested in reading Breaking Free of the Victim Trap by Diane Zimberoff which discusses this at length.

You talked some about doing things to improve yourself. Do you these things to improve yourself in order to make things better for others? Or do you do this for you? When we make improvements, changes, etc., it is critical that we do them for ourselves and not so much for others. Otherwise, it can invite bitterness and/or reverting back to our old ways. (not saying you do this, just wanted to put it out there as something to think about, especially if her dissatisfaction is the main reason and/or the only times or most of the times, that you to look at yourself.)

You said, "Unfortunately thought she feels the marriage is causing her unhappiness she cannot explain what of the marriage or why it makes her feel that way. She does feel something is wrong with her to be happy and then a few months later unhappy with the marriage. She wants to seek therapy help for herself though to help her justify her feelings, not improve them. "

I wonder if you meant she wants to justify her thought process as opposed to her feelings? I ask because feelings not thoughts, but they usually come as a result of thoughts. Thoughts can come from the conscious mind or the subconscious (we humans aren't aware of our subconscious thoughts). So her going to therapy is a good idea and IMHO, it offers hope. A good therapist will not coddle her thought process if it isn't healthy. A good therapist will guide their client thru a healthy process of self-introspection.

Please don't assume that your children, regardless of their age, don't know or at least sense that something may be amiss. Just because they don't say anything doesn't mean they don't know or suspect.

I stand by what I say about love (including being "in love") not being a feeling, but rather an action verb. Love (including true love) is a choice/decision. I know everyone talks about feeling love for someone, but it's not a feeling per se. Psychologically speaking, feelings are joy/happiness, anger, sadness/grief, fear, shame, guilt, jealousy and loneliness. My understanding of Christian love means to love others the way Christ loved the church. Again, this is a choice to behave in a loving way.

That said, I am not questioning your love for her or your family. And I truly hope you and your wife can work together to save your marriage. And I hope you and your wife look further into the possibility of therapy, especially since she has expressed a desire for it. Call your county mental health agency and ask for referrals to therapists who charge on a sliding scale and/or who do pro-bono. If either of you have insurance that covers mental health, you can also ask if the therapist will just accept the insurance payment.

I don't know your financial status (and I'm not asking), but, since you've made it very clear how important your marriage & your wife are to you, it might be worth cutting back on something in order to afford therapy. I personally can't think of anything more important than our mental health.

You referred to challenges and this sounds like a big one. Please think about thinking outside of the box to find a way for your wife to get the therapy she desires. It could make all the difference.

Your story sounds very much like mine but I had no awareness until my husband left me. For several years, I knew we were not as "connected" as I wanted to be. But I thought that was because we had young children and we're tired. It seemed no different from my friends... but, then it started deteriating. He became even more introverted, and impatient with the kids. He was obviously going through something but wouldn't take about it. I though he was experiencing anxiety and maybe depression bc he was worried about going back to work after being a Stay at home day. But, he refused to talk about it, and just got angry whenever I tried to talk about it.

I finally insisted on counseling. He was still insisting we didn't need need it. But, I insisted. Night before the appt, he told me he was involved in a 4 year emotional affair that had turned physical and he was leaving.

Over the 18 months since, I had gotten insights into his "inner voice". During the 14 yrs of our marriage, 27 together, he kept it bottled up.
- very very negative inside voice.
- strong inferiority feelings
- incredible fear of failure
- strong belief that it is others responsibility to make him happy
- to balance his feelings of inferiority, he tears down everyone around him.

I saw snippets of the latter in gossipy, back-biting, comments about our friends. But largely I had no idea about the depth of any of it bc he never ever shared his feelings with me.

He got addicted to an online community. The constant "likes" and online glorification fed him and they became more real to him than his family and he had an affair with someone from that community.

Why am I saying all this? Well, what I've learned is that the relationship can't get better unless she wants it to and does the internal work. And that is really hard. I tried dates nights, suggested counselling, working thru self-help books together. All it did was feed his negative inner space. It turns out he turned every attempt I made to get closer into a negative thing.

Unless she is willing to recognize her side and do the work, you won't get very fall. You may live together, but you won't be "connected".

Good luck! I'm excited for you that you are aware and working on it. I wish I had insisted, really demanded, counseling sooner. Maybe we could have uncovered the issues before he imploded... and took our family with him.

CA

Mytruecolors, please forgive my poor typing skills for my thoughts on the feelings and choices concerning love parallel yours. I can only assume I expressed them poorly in the final statements of my above post.

Thank you Strong... I'm so sorry you went through that and yes our situations seem similar. My wife goes through cycles during the year. Before anyone suggests it I don't believe she is bipolar as her cycles are not hour to hour or day to day but every 6 months or so. They do seem to be influenceed by variables such as financial stress, job stress, etc. When she is suffering she pulls away from everyone. She wants special treatment (everything provided to her) and to be allowed to exclude herself from things. Surely she does suffer from some kind of depression but she is able to put on a smile and fool everyone including herself. This facade of normalcy and insincere happiness gives weight in her own mind that the problems cannot possibly have anything to do with her conscious choices.

We've faced this period before and if we get through this I unfortunately am forced to believe we will again. The last time was by far the worst as she went so far as to lease and apartment and was only days from telling the children. I managed to stall her long enough that we were able to slowly make progress. She started realizing how much she relies on me as a friend. Then she started enjoying herself more and more gradually with me. Attraction once again arose eventually. Finally her "feelings of love" were strong. She never moved into the apartment and cancelled the lease (extremely difficult financial burden for us but how much would I have paid to improve our marriage?) She started talking about how we can get through anything if we could get through that experience. I asked her to remember that however bad she gets feeling again to please know in her heart we can get back to the good with faith, commitment, and communication. She even brought up that she wanted to renew our wedding vows. In all honesty that made me break down as I was having to stay so strong for so long. The next few months were the best in my memory. We were both so happy.

Our 15 year anniversary was in October and it was great. But since that time we have struggled a lot with finances. She comes home from work exhausted and tries to recover watching her TV shows in bed. Our schedules are such that I end up helping the kids with homework and fixing dinner. I don't mind and want to make things easy for her. She also started giving reasonable excused we couldn't make it to church. It has been many weeks now and she really doesn't want to do much with me right now. The intimacy fell off pretty sharply after the anniversary and there were always legitimate reasons. Now with her slipping back into that funk it isn't an option.

After 15 years there have been opportunities (surely) for emotional or physical affairs yet she has always remained faithful. Of course I worry that one day could be different. I am intending on encouraging counseling for her. I do wish the counseling could at least get a feel for our marriage from my perspective too and learn how I am as a person. I believe that to be vital information for helping her with herself and her marriage. I suspect that is not normal procedure for individual counseling as opposed to couples counseling.

Again thank you both for the feedback. My reasons for posting are to find a place to get some much needed encouragement. As I am sure everyone here knows, this is incredibly difficult and more so because I cannot share or receive words of encouragement from anyone.

Maybe you should go to counseling yourself. Give you someone to talk it thru with.

I wish I could. Thank you for your concern.

Even though I tried and failed to save my marriage, it was actually the best for me. I was flawed in thinking that my marriage was worth saving. So even though I don't have an example of a success in this regard, I am still here to support you, listen, offer constructive advice, whatever you need. Feel free to message me anytime.

Thanks Broken. You words were a source of comfort last go around. I truly appreciate you.

there are a lot of smart people on the Healthy Relationship support group

http://www.dailystrength.org/c/Healthy-Relationships/support-group

I didn't read all the replies, just skimmed through. I kind of relate to your wife when I read about the financial stress. In my first marriage my husband loved spending and would even refinance or take loans against stuff to buy more things. I lived in fear most of the marriage. We would talk about finances and budgets and he would nod his head, yes yes, we should spend less and prepare for the future, but go on doing as he wished. If he wanted to buy something and I said we couldn't afford it, he would just get a loan and have the money directly taken from his pay. Women need security and my security was in jeopardy. I got to tell you, when we divorced, I had to pay off half the debt and it took a huge chunk of my settlement, but now I have been debt free ever since and my depression has lifted and I sleep so much better. Now that wasn't our only issue and I am not saying all this is your fault or is the issue. Just letting you know that financial security is HUGE for women. It might be worth the two of you working together to get your finances in order. Have you heard of Dave Ramsey? He's helps lots of people become debt free. I used to listen to him on the radio on my lunch bread and many people called in to say they were debt free and it saved their marriage.

Here is his formula if you are interested: https://www.daveramsey.com/baby-steps

Some churches have his classes, They are typically called Financial Peace University.

Best of luck to you.

My friend, if you are inquiring at Church and getting as you said focus on divorce recovery, I ask you please research your community better.

If it had not been for the help, love, council and support I have received form a local church I stumbled in to... my life would be I am sorry to say much darker then it is.

I struggle with losing my wife ever day, knowing my actions drove her away. My relationship with my council and support for the church has finally given me some hope.

Bless you, keep looking!

Thank you and as it turns out my desperate search for support in my effort to save my marriage to the woman of my dreams was misguided. According to her there is nothing left to save. I will be looking for divorce support after all. And so those this I have worked so hard to build and grow wilt and come crashing down around me. I'm so lost and devastated.

RE: Your reply #12.

If she has notified you that it is hopeless. Begin to work on yourself. Make yourself a better person. She will watch and take notice. For women it's all about action. Action speaks louder than words or promises. Many people make changes and fall back into old habits, so make permanent changes that are attractive to her. I'm not talking just about looks. Who knows, she may change her mind. If not, nothing lost....you've become better