What do you hope to get out of doing that? If she wants to reconcile, which you said she doesn't, she'll let you know. I would focus on loving myself and not on expressing love to someone who chose to walk away. Best wishes.

You know... this site is for divorce and seperation, and I would expect everyone on here has gone through the pain either already or currently. Whats not on here are people that have gone through this, hit bottom and reconciled. However unlikely it seems, its not something that is impossible. So I guess i had hopes of hearing both sides here. But it seems the only side ( granted the more common ) is divorce and moving on and healing. If anyone thinks I want to feel this way, your crazy. I know some of my pain is self inflicted, I know everyone has repeatadly advised me to give up, heal myself etc.. ive heard it, ive tried it, ive been trying, i think thats evident by my once everyday crying to my current stage of ups and downs. I guess what im lacking, and perhaps this site is lacking is the other side of these situations.. the ones that were successfull and saving a marriage however rare it might be. I would think that for most of us at one point we had hoped for that, at one point it was all you wanted... maybe even today you think if i only did this differently. Desptie my pain, despite any failed efforts and false hope, I want to walk away with my head high knowing i did everything possible. I loved and fought for what i believe in and cherish most in my life. Giving up may be inevitable... but if im not ready, or anyone at this moment isn't ready.. how does anyone really know when is the right time?

Honestly, ESL, to answer your question, "Without begging and trying to plead with her, is it wrong to continue to express my love for her. by saying i love you... saying I miss you? Doing that occasional nice thing?"

My opinion is, no, it's not wrong. However, I think everyone here is trying to tell you that 1. It will not help YOU heal. 2. It is very doubtful that it will somehow bring her back. Most likely, it will only serve to annoy her, as it will inflict guilt on her for her decision, and she does not want to live a life of guilt.
Regardless of why she left the marriage, she most likely didn't just wake up one day and decide to leave. She already knows that you still love her, and she probably still loves you, but she decided it was over. Is it impossible that she'll change her mind down the road? No. But, I highly doubt that sending her cards or telling her you love her is going to speed that process (if it happens) along. Maybe, one last letter telling her how you feel, but also telling her it will be the last time you spill your feelings to her would actually make her feel better about whatever relationship going forward. Set her free.
Again, just my opinion, but I am guessing that your wife/Stbx/ex does not want to hear those things from you anymore. I'm sorry. She wants you to move on. Heal yourself, let her heal, and then decide whether reconciliation is still possible.

Thank you Looking.....

I actually sent her a last letter last week, I was open, honest and understanding of her feelings and needs, and some of the mistakes or misunderstandings between us. I dont really tell her constantly how i feel about her, I know she knows... but there are certain moments i sitll break down... like her birthday yesterday, I wished her a happy birthday and said I love you. She does feel bad for hurting me... I can see how that is a feeling of Guilt..... It seems the consenses here is to no longer express my feelings towards her in anyway... thats hard to do. I see her weekly, sometimes 3 times a week. can't be avoided as we have 2 young kids. ill have to try my best.

This site is about empathy, sympathy, comfort and support. However, its also about offering a gentle kick in the butt when needed. It's not about coddling because that doesn't help anyone. From what I read, it seems you are asking questions in the hope of getting the answer you want - that you want the responses to validate your choice. And while I truly understand that because its something most of us want, there comes a point where we might consider what the majority is saying.

Please consider this question very seriously. It is meant to be helpful.

Has it ever occurred to you that what you are doing here in this forum is exactly what you've done and continue to do w/your stbx? (i.e. not listening and discounting most of the answers w/'yes buts' unless they validate your way of thinking) And maybe THAT is why your wife checked out? I'm sorry, I know this is hard to read, but IF you really want things to change, it's time to take a hard look at yourself and take the focus off your stbx.

Nothing will change until you do. And that's a fact.

When we do the same thing the same way over and over expecting different results, we end up being frustrated, especially when we do those things to cause another person to change (or change their mind).

You said that your 'heart is still hers.' That is a romantic statement that is not based in reality. It tells me that you probably don't feel complete w/in yourself and you think you can't make it w/o her. That's not true either.

No one can fulfill or complete us but us. They can't even make us feel loved or happy We must do that ourselves and feel it w/in ourselves first. I encourage you to get into therapy asap and focus on yourself instead of your stbx. It's the only way you will get past this and....

It's the only chance you have to have a better relationship w/her, if its not already too late.

If you continue doing the same things the same way, you could (if you haven't already) alienate her forever. And that could mean that she might be less cooperative when it comes to the kids.


A few words about love...

Love is not about having what you want. Love is an action verb that shows the other person just how much you love them. It's not about telling them you love them. Its not about buying them presents. It's not about hanging on to them, when they have clearly stated they are done. It's also not about continually reminding them that you love them. When actions don't match words, the person will always, on some level, believe the actions over the words. (i.e. saying I love you but disrespecting their choices.)

What love IS, is actively listening to the other person and respecting them with your actions. Its putting them first above your wants and needs. If you truly love her, you would want her to be happy even if that means not being w/you.

When it comes to human nature, the harder you try to get her back and to satisfy your needs/wants and continue to tell her how you feel, the further and faster she will run. And, again, that could put your relationship w/your kids at risk.

I am sorry for your loss and I wish you healing.

My True Colors... Thank you... You are probably right in many ways... Im not sure if this is right or not ". not listening and discounting most of the answers w/'yes buts' unless they validate your way of thinking"... She has sad she feels like she isn't being heard... but in the same sentence has said she accepts responsibility for harboring feelings and not communicating. So yes, its possible she feels exactly what you stated, but confuses me a bit. If she isn't communicating and harboring feelings.. what am I not hearing? I have paid more attention to things she is saying, and have even gone back over past conversations to try to see things I may have no truely heard... There are some cases were i realized things after the fact... and I am working on being a better listener. I do want her to be happy, I do respect her and am giving her everything she wants... Its not what I want, and your right with what you said about Love. I agree. I guess im just not sure how to fully ignore my own feelings... to be honest, I have no idea what im doing anymore. I am lost... i have been lost for many months. I struggle everyday with what is right and what is wrong. People say to focus on me... what does that even mean? If all I want is her and my family whole again, and im supposed to focus on me.. how do ignore that? I do things for me.. I go to gym, im dieting, i hang with friends, spend time with family, catch a movie and focus on my career. im lonely at night, i miss her, I miss the kids. What do I do? I wish someone could jump into my sole and control me right now, point me in a direction because right now all I want is her, and when she wants space i give it... This past weekend i was sick thur fri and sat... she came over with the kids sunday so I could see them and spent 6 hours with me helping me around the house.... I didn't ask her to, and she insisted. It was a brief feeling of family again.... It confuses me at times, giving space but things like that are ok? How do I say no to those things when i want to see the kids, and spending time with her feels good too? I dont want the impression to be im calling everyday crying begging and confessing my love to her.... I am trying to give her what she wants, I want her to be happy even if its without me... it hurts to know thats where she feels she would be happier, im not stopping her, I scheduled the mediator, not her. But I dont really know where her feelings and wants begin and end, and where mine should end... I dunno.. I guess im just a mess.

I understand feeling confused and being a mess. Unfortunately that's a pretty normal state of being w/what you're going thru.

And I get what you're saying about her not communicating her feelings. There are always at least two sides to a story and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Both sides contribute to the demise of a marriage. But all we can do is look at our part it in. I cannot tell you how many months (make that years!) I spent in therapy griping about the ex and not focusing on me. I had a hard time going No Contact. (Our kids were adults when we split.) But I finally found a therapist who kicked me in the butt and said that as long as I focused on him I wouldn't heal. She was dead on.

That said, I absolutely did not mean to imply that you should ignore your feelings. Focusing on you and your feelings is critical for your healing. That's why I suggested getting into therapy. (If you're already in therapy and the counselor isn't helping in this area, then it may be time to find a new one.)

It is crucial that you honor w/o judgment & express your feelings whatever they are - just don't express them to stbx. That's best done in a therapist's office and maybe a divorce and/or grief support group. (and here)

Your feelings are neither right nor wrong. They just are. And it's healthy to express them outwardly w/a someone who is neutral (like a therapist).

It takes time to move thru all of the emotions. Divorce is like a death, only worse because for one thing, the person is still around to remind us of what we lost. Divorce is also a multi-faceted loss. We not only lose our spouse, but we lose family (in-laws, etc), friends, possibly the family home, living as a family unit, full time access to the kids, our status in the community, including many times in the church, not to mention financial assets, just to name some.

Most people really don't get how complicated the losses from divorce are. That's why its so important to allow ourselves to go thru the grief process.

There are well established stages of grief by Elizabeth Kubler Ross. Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance. (not sure about the order, but it really doesn't matter). We may or may not go thru all of the stages in order. We may repeat stages. We may skip a stage, only to get blasted with it years later. And we may be in more than one stage at a time.

One of the things I have found is that what we focus on expands. So if we are always focusing on what we don't have, we are always unhappy. There's a great book, The Way to Love by Anthony DeMello that talks about this. (Its a short, easy, but profound read.) Even in the midst of my grief, when I started practicing gratitude for the tiniest little things (like a butterfly flitting by), my attitude & feelings started to change.

It took me a long time to understand that thoughts really do feed our feelings. But it's true that if we can change our thoughts, our feelings will begin to shift.

There's a national divorce support group called Rebuilding based on the book by Bruce Fisher (www.rebuilding.org). They offer excellent recovery tools which are focused on expressing our grief outwardly which is necessary to heal.

All this said, healing takes time. So allow yourself however much time you need. Focus on you and continue to do the good things for yourself that you're already doing like hanging w/friends, going to the gym, etc.

Again it's not about ignoring your feelings. It's more like being aware of how many times you think about her and wish for what you don't have right now. For example, when she pops into your head (and she will and it will feel like you have no control over it), have a positive affirmation to say to yourself, like I love myself or I am loved or I am ok right in this very moment, etc. Its hard to think two different thoughts at the same time. What ever affirmations you decide on, have to start with "I am" and they can only contain positive words - even if you don't believe it at the time.

I hope this helps. I truly believe that the more positive you are and the less you pressure her, the better the relationship will be, however it turns out.

~healing hugs~

What she is doing is going to be confusing to you. You are reading way more into it than you should. She has disconnected from you. She can be around you and not have the feelings she has. Like I told you earlier, she has been working up to that for possibly years. She didn't just wake up and decide today I want a divorce. She's thought about it long and hard. Could you reconcile? Anythings possible, just not very likely. And I didn't come up with the idea she's done. At least 3 different counselors told me this with my wife. When they reach this point, they are DONE. I told you i tried for a couple of months. Guess what, she was done. I just prolonged my pain. We are all just trying to tell you right now you have to focus on yourself. What does that mean? Well you are doing it. Hanging out with friends, going to movies, etc. Does it feel right. No way! And it's not for a long time. So you just keep doing it and one day your going to notice you feel a little better. It's going to be a long road. I'm on it with you. I still dream about having her back and my family intact. But I tried and it did not work. So now I have to find new dreams. Still working on that. But the first step is to admit that's she is done. The best thing I did was go no contact as much as possible. Communication needs to be business only. Don't let her come to the house and help you. It's only confusing you. She was just being nice like she would for a friend. That's what you are to her now. Is that what you want to be? I didn't so I cut off communication. It's hell but you have to do it. She'll keep you in limbo forever because she's getting something out of the relationship. A friend. It's going to be hard, it sucks, its painful. But you will get over it.

ESL, I get it. You don't want a divorce. Your wife does. The reality is that your marriage is over. Whatever was and whatever might be later, the present reality is that your marriage is done. Until you accept that reality, you will continue to suffer.

It is very difficult to accept an outcome you don't want, but that is part of adulthood. You have to accept what you cannot change. You have to accept no as an answer. I believe you will be better able to do your grief work if you live in reality.

As a woman, I would find it disturbing to be in a relationship with a man who won't accept my no as an answer. Your wife has said no to this marriage many times in the past 8 months. When she is nice to you, that is all it is - she is being nice. It does not mean she is changing her mind.

Please think about what everyone is trying to tell you.

Well, ive always been an honest person so here it goes.... First off id like to apologize to anyone that hinted at an affair, I know i got defensive about it, and although i always felt it was a possibility, I didn't really want to accept it.

A few days ago i got a phone call from a women, who is, or was the wife of a guy in my wifes office. it turns out she has had a similar concern that i had over the last year and half or so... We talked alot, went over timelines and she had more info then i did... There still isn't that defining proof of them being seen together, however, there's to many coincidences to not think otherwise. At the very least it started as an emotional thing, I dont know for sure if or when it became something more, but it appears it has. This women also informed me that my wife isn't the only girl her husband is talking to or with... My wife asked for seperation end of Dec.... he decided to leave his wife in Jan. Its clear that this man has weezeled is way into my wifes life, and im sure has filled her mind with all the right things to say, as She confided in him early on about our marriage and troubles she had with our kids being so tough. This doesn't take blame from my wife, but it has opened a wound and only dug the knife deeper. I had hope that my suspicions were just me being a bit insecure, but i now know i had ever right to be. This is partially comforting as i realize i wasn't crazy... but it doesn't change my heart and the pain i feel from it. I have gone to Zero contact as if a few days ago... She texted me three times about my Sons birthday, I didn't respond to the first two because it was about things we already discussed.. she is going to have a BBQ at her fathers and is inviting my whole family too.... her third text was this....

"I know shit is weird for everyone but you should be there for our sons birthday and your family should be there too. This party is for him. We should be putting aside our issues and celebrating our sons birthday. if not then I guess at this point we are splitting birthdays and doing seperate things?"

I never said I wasn't going, although its on my mind... I have a small family and my aunt and uncle will be out of town, and both cousins are away at college. The only people that may attend is my sis and father. However her family is large, and although i love them all, and miss them. Seeing her with this knew knowledge is to painful and im not sure i can suck it up enough to be there... ;o(

My response to her was as follows

"
I dont know what im going to do and my family can make ther eown decisions... right now knowing the truth about what you have done I dont want to speak to you. If your family knew the truth and if it was me that did this to you, your family would have hung me. I can't even bare to tell my family the truth the truth because I dont want them thinking less of you. You know how I feel about you and the kids... your family knows how I feel about you and the kids. Your actions have consequences that you should have thought about long ago. If you decide you want to be honest with me and if you ever realize the mistake this is. I am open ears. You and the kids have always been my world, you and that piece of shit have destroyed it. Its not beyond repair, but as long as he is in your ear. There will forever be a wedge between us."


I know this sounded like id still give her a chance... im not sure i would or not to be honest. Not that she even would. It would be difficult to over come this, and would take alot of effort and patience on both sides.. Im not so sure i have that in me anymore, and so far she has shown zero interest let alone effort. I haven't told anyone what i now know, Ive conteplated informing her family, but they may already know. They know i did nothing wrong, and they have all already stated they feel for me its a terrrible thing thats happened. Im not sure if they know the truth or not. Not sure what value there is to even tell them. im heartbroken... and sticking to no contact, which unfortunatly may also mean some lost time with my kids. If I dont go to her fathers for my son... you can be sure ill be doing something on my own to make his b-day special. I just am not sure what can, and what I should do just yet.

ESL12, I feel for you brother, I am in a very simular situation. I too still love my wife with all my being. I don't know if anyone can tell you the right thing to do here.

I can tell you that I too cry and have broke down in frt of her many times... it usually just upsets her more... but I can't help it!

I will tell you this, I have done a lot of things wrong but I am a believer that showing love is better then not. Do what you heart tells you (but let you brain help a little.) This prob does not help, but I wish you the best... I will pray you find peace with or with out your love.

Michael

Thank you Mike.. I will pray for you as well, and I wish you all the luck in the world sa you struggle through this journy. I share your thoughts and pain.

My husband left me about the same time as your wife left you. We were married for 35 years and he moved 3000 miles away to move in with someone he met online. We had no kids which, along with the distance, helped. When I made him take the dogs he had to find a place where he could have them as OW's rental wouldn't allow them. She hasn't moved in with him to my knowledge and he seems content to just be with his dogs. It took me about 5 months to start to come out of my personal hellhole, thanks in part to my counsellor. I started applying for volunteer work and consulting work. Then I found out I had cancer and needed an operation. At first he said he'd come to help me post surgery but then decided there was no one to take the dogs and he didn't want to make another trip with them. So he was a no-show. I also started chemo this week. I am very fortunate to have his in-laws looking out for me though they are several hours away. They keep in touch all the time. I also have friends nearby ready to take me to treatments and check up on me.

His distance, lack of support, and having something that I have to concentrate on (my health) instead of him, has pushed his memory back in my brain. I still think of him daily, though for less and less time. I can't believe that the one time in my life I needed him, he wasn't there. Especially after nursing him through his illness for 6 years. But that's life. He didn't leave me until he could mooch off OW and not need my financial assistance.

What most of us realized at some point is that your partner seldom leaves you unless there is someone else in the picture. No one wants to be alone so they wait until they have someone else. We, then, are left alone and we don't want to be alone either. It just plain sucks.

I have been following this thread from time to time. I dont often post here...but you asked for an opinion from another point of view..so here's my story.

I did what your doing right now...and I did get that reconciliation after 2 years of divorce. It only lasted 3 years and I am now divorced for 6 years for the 2nd time to the same man.

I learned my lessons the hard way...I was there at the drop of the hat...eager to do what ever it took to repair the marriage. When he told me he wanted to reconcile...I dropped everything I was doing...I rented out my home and moved to a different city to be with him. The first year was great! The 2nd year...not so much! The 3rd year almost killed me emotionally. The problems that he had in the marriage and within himself came back 10 fold. I turned myself inside trying to make him happy...I just could not do it.

After all my heart ache and tears...I realized...it really wasnt about me...it was about him. He was unhappy with himself. All the love and money in the world couldnt have changed that...because...happiness is an inside job...you or no one else can fix that.

Now 6 years later and NC for a large portion of that time we are friends. He is helping me fix my rental home right now. I lent him my car when his was broken and he needed to go to work. The friendship is working with no emotional repercussions...and my adult children love it.

ESL...please understand...these folks are giving you really good advise. At times it may seem harsh..but it is truth. If you cant handle the harshness at times...then its time to get tougher because what your about to go through with your wife will be 100 times worse...Big Hugs...Kathy

ESL, I am sorry that you found out that your wife possibly cheated. I know how you are feeling as I was going through a similar but unique situation of my own almost a year ago. My stbx told me that he would find a way back to our family. But as time passed, he never tried. Not one bit. I continued to try, I waited around while he spent time with the OW. I told him I loved him, that I missed him. I cried in front of him. I jumped every time he wanted to see me. But the truth is he was just keeping me on the hook. He was using me. As time passed I began to realize that even if he told me that he loved me and wanted to reconcile, I could never trust him again. He too met the OW at his work. They had an emotional affair for months and as soon as he left he started dating her openly. He made up his mind and if he is weak enough to allow the OW into his life and it break up our family then I am better off without him. Because as much as I blamed the OW for the demise of my marriage.....she is not at fault. My stbx husband is the only one to blame. The OW is not magical, she is not a mind controller, she is not a supermodel. As a matter of fact she is now going to have to deal with all the crap that I had to for so many years. I am essentially free.
If there is an OM in your wife's life, I am sorry that you had to find out the way you did. Hopefully she will be honest with you. But really no amount of details you get from her will help you. I have heard and seen so many more details than I ever needed to know. It doesn't change the fact that she wants a divorce. And it didn't change the mind of my stbx when I told him I loved him. If your wife has OM then she is not doing things that are loveable to you and therefore not deserving of being told by you that you love her. It doesn't change the fact that you love her, but don't give her the satisfaction of telling her. You will heal so much faster when you stop expressing those feelings to her.