No, I don't think we have free will. I believe very strongly in determinism - I think our brains govern the choices we make. The diathesis stress model, so a combination of genes and environment, chooses for us - and we couldn't have had it any other way, yet there is this illusion of..... 'free will.' People can stick their arm in the air and say "I chose to do that" but the thing is, I believe their brain already decided they were going to do that.
I am not religious. At all. So that doesn't come into it for me.

I get what your saying doorknob, didn't at first but I do now.
I don't know the answer but you've got me thinking...

xo

There are so many "aspects" to free will and so many theories that it would be impossible to "prove" as you seek to do.

I believe we are all connected and whatever choice is made by one affects another and all. The best chance we have of free will is that which we can decide within any given frame of mind. This is true from a secular stand point.

However, from a christian standpoint I believe free will is born of the heart as we are moved by the spirit to live our lives. Even when we are in the midst of mania or depression and we make choices that may not be the best, God knows our heart and is aware of our innability to be rational or true to our spirit.

Free will is the power to choose in whatever domain you choose to see it. We assume that we will always have the power to choose without it being determined by something else or that we can always control what we choose to do. That is not always the case as proven by circumstances of illness.

As we are given free will, we are offered a right heart. Our choice may not be "right" but our intent can be. Free will may not be the choice of action but the choice of heart and a very personal inner emotion.

Just a quick aside, I am not sure if you know it or not, doorknob, but the issue of free will has been a huge one in the Protestant Church since Calvin wrote "Institutes of the Christian Religion." I have moved from one camp to another, but I won't say which direction. It is a huge debate, and has been for 4 centuries. I'm sure we won't solve it talking about it here. LOL

I'm well acquainted with the story of Christ Angela and even the doubting Thomas story as well. I was born and raised a catholic. But over time I came to realize that so much is wrong with the bible. Most of my beef is with the old testament and not the new. Even though I am now agnostic and I really believe that all religions are superstitions passed on to us by our ancestors I do still find the story of Christ to be a touching one. I understand all that blind faith stuff I was raised on it. But I do not have such a thing as blind faith. Life has taught me other wise.

Also I don't know a single religious person christian or other wise that doesn't feel strong conviction for their beliefs. (well maybe some don't). So sorry but that isn't very likely to win me over as a believer.

Lots of people claim they "heard god" and not all of them were bi polar either. (maybe some of them were undiagnosed though). What you heard or any one else heard for that matter I don't pretend to know what it was. it could have been god or it could have been some other "supernatural" being playing a practical joke for all I know! So if you heard something and you believe it was god then who am I to say other wise? You are more than entitled to your beliefs.

As for me I hear and see all kinds of stuff and I don't necessarily believe in it. And hearing a voice that came from god would probably be refreshing by comparison!

So I will remain agnostic because I believe what you said is true. You can not provide proof for (or in my opinion) against the existence of a god. A god by any other name ( you know the saying!). It may just be beyond proof short of god making a world wide appearance.

Also I think there are many other positive things present in other religions as well. I admire Buddhism and it's goal of achieving enlightenment. It also conveys a message of self improvement while perhaps neglecting the focus on kindness and good will towards others.

But my whole questioning free will boils down to this. I do remember genesis which is when free will is first mentioned. And there are many confusing things in the genesis story. You have original sin which implies what caused us to have our "human" limitations and imperfections but on the other hand it also implies that we ate from the tree of "knowledge" or more specifically the "knowledge" of good and evil. It almost implies that humans knowingly choose between good and evil, which means that we are born knowing right from wrong. But observable evidence points to the contrary. While there may indeed be some people who wake up and decide to do something evil simply for the sake of doing evil, I think the vast majority of people are doing evil because they do not know another way. It was not their choice! They were born in the wrong part of the world, They have mental impairments (which normal people are still impaired in my opinion), They were put in a bad situation and they had to make a fast choice and made a mistake. I myself have made mistakes my intent was not to hurt others but that was the result of my actions. It was not truly my will to hurt the one's I love (or any one in particular) but that was still what happened. I'm not passing the buck here. I know I"m responsible to learn from my mistakes at the very least.

My point is this, how many people go on through day to day totally unaware of how their actions no matter how mundane might be hurting some one? I do not believe that people hurt each other intentionally it is a result of their environment, brain function, knowledge, belief system and awareness. All of those things have to be taken into account when it comes to human behaviors. To me that is not free will, that is just humans trying to live the best they can with what ever they were given. If you wanted to test humanity then give them all a level playing field then see what they choose. I'm sure there would still be variations, but less would fall off the wagon if there weren't "human" limitations being randomly given out. You see how complex the whole concept of free will is?

While I do think that some times psychology is trying to put human intelligence and behavior into a box that it will never quite fit into it is at the very least based on observable evidence. Still it is limited by our humanity itself. Trying to study something like this there are just too many factors going into it to have any real proof.

Still since the "word of god" was fist uttered I don't see that human behavior on a large scale has been impacted in a positive direction. I think that is because as humans we do not have a large enough capacity for the kind of understanding and awareness it would take to make a real difference on a grand scale. Too many religions are divided and all over the map when it comes to it's teachings and the true meanings behind them. Even if we have the "perfect" teaching (and I'm not convinced that Christianity alone has a perfect teaching) it is still left up to the individual's ability to interpret it and then successfully apply that teaching in real life situations.

When it comes to free will, how much free will do you really believe you have? Mine is impaired by my own personal limitations. My will would be perfection yet I can not achieve such a high goal as that by will alone. With all that in mind who then can be condemned for their actions? Isn't it intent that determines ones fate in the after life? If you believe in it that is. By that token only the truly depraved will end up in hell. Even then I'm not totally convinced they were evil by their own free will. They were evil because of genetics, and environment. The picture that the bible paints is that humans choose to be evil, or good. But I don't think humans choose such things in reality I think they get thrown into it.

I only can say that I simply am lucky. I got lucky that I could make such a huge turn around. I have become a better person because of the heart ships I have endured. I continue to strive for self improvement because I was lucky enough to be born with a capacity for it. I got lucky because something in my child hood inspired me to think about things on a deeper level then most would ever think about it. I think more people actually have a capacity to do better then they are now but they may never reach their full potential because they are unaware that they even have it. I do not blame them for it though they are humans suffering for their own humanity. And I don't attribute any of my achievements to god or anything else. I simply got lucky that is all it was. While I'm grateful for what I do have I do not think I got it because of free will. If I had my will I would be perfect at least as far as not hurting others, showing kindness, forgiveness and understanding. For all my efforts I still can not achieve it! I wont give up trying or doing my very best but I'm left wondering how much power do I really even have over my own life? What if my best is not good enough?

When it comes to the after life I can't begin to tell you what awaits us, a reward for our best efforts? Punishment for all our failures? Another life just like this one? Or big fat nothing! I can't tell you since I don't know the answer. But I highly suspect that there are no guarantees in death any more then there are for life.

Damn! I know I can go on and on for ever! LOL I hope I don't bore people, I could write a book!

oops *hardships not heart ships LOL! I probably need sleep or something!