Well even if you make a bad choice it is still a choice and not making a choice is a choice also. I guess I'm not sure if freewill is an illusion or something real. I can make choices as to what I want to do or don't want to do so to me that is freewill. Somethings I don't have a choice over though, like I have to work, no choice.

Here's a good song about freewill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhcM_hx0zxw

Free will is the ability to choose what we discern is right from wrong in the state of being that we are in. You make some valid points but the most important thing to me when I make a choice is that God knows my heart and how I have made that choice.

We are not perfect but forgiven....xo

watch from minute 4:18 if you dont want to watch it all :)

http://www.hulu.com/watch/1610/saturday-night-live-tv-funhouse-maraka-and-mittens

I think everyone has free will, which is different from will power and also removed from the theological presentation of free will which I find corrupt. Every choice we make during a day or a lifetime involves free will. That doesn't mean our choices and the fallout from them are well made, but it doesn't change the fact that we get to choose.

well here's the problem with the whole concept of "free will"

where do you draw the lines?

You know the famous saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink" But a sadistically person would say "yes I can force that horse to drink by not giving it any water for a few days and then lead it to water."

The horse does not drink water because it doesn't have a level of awareness to do so. It does not reason the possibility that water may become unavailable at some point. But over time if water becomes scarce the horse will drink water every time that water is made available to it. Does that horse have free will?

Just because we humans have awareness at a higher level than animals and we are able to make better choices doesn't prove that we have any more free will than that horse does! When confronted with a problem we have to make some kind of choice even if that choice is to do nothing. I would say we are probably programmed to make the best choice for our own survival. But our choices are limited to what we know about. there maybe other choices that we can't make because we don't even know they are an option. Is that still free will?

Is having a choice in the matter really equivalent to free will? I say no it is not because we choose to do things that go against our will for survival. Not to many people chose not to survive. Therefor how can you prove they have free will? They are still slaves to their bodily needs, and slaves to environmental factors along with physical limitations.

This is where the study of psychology comes into play. All humans seem to behave a certain way when placed in the same situation. There may be a few instances of people who do not follow the pattern but why do so many people make the same or similar choices when presented with the same situation? If they really had free will and were not simply products of their environment I think we would have observed more variety in human behavior. Also societal factors play a huge part in human behavior as well, for example if you place some one from Africa in the same situation as some one from Germany you would see a different trend in behavior. So how do you prove that all those people really have free will?

Maybe this experiment is a good example of what I'm talking about.

http://psychology.about.com/od/classicpsychologystudies/p/conformity.htm

So where do you draw the lines with free will? Is it real or only just an illusion that your mind tells you, you have?

Ii think God is in control. I believe he is sovereign and knows the decisions I will make in advance.

I still believe though, that we have the ability to make choices that are positive, enhance the quality of my life, and live in accordance with God's plan for my life.

I think self discipline is the best choice one can make to make life worthwhile. I think when you feel life is totally deterministic, then you are verging on nihilism. I am not a great believer in free choice for the sake of free choice, but rather than God created us to function best by living a certain way. We have the choice to chose the right way, or walk down the broad road to destruction - literally, and spiritually.

hmmm

All these experiments are famous psychological experiments. This one is probably an even better example

http://psychology.about.com/od/historyofpsychology/a/milgram.htm

Angela you follow Christianity only because you believe in it. What if you had doubts about it? Would you still follow it?

What if you actually knew for a fact that Christianity was false? Would you still follow it then?

Also I think it's rare to find some one who does believe in god and Christianity yet purposely chooses not to follow it.

Hmmmm.

What made you write this post? Did you write it of your own free will? (I am being Serious here)

:?

I'd say my brain made me write it.

And from every thing I've read I've inherited my brain from my parents and the environment I was raised in. So yes I'd say I am a slave to both my environment and genetics.

Also thanks to medication I know the real difference in the chemicals my brain is lacking. With out them it is beyond my ability to live up to my full potential. That is how I know I have no free will. I am a slave to the chemicals in my brain (and of course the wiring too).

Maybe the real question should be "what is free will?" For me the concept is a little like the concept of god. A bit abstract. When I think I have the definition I fail to pin it down. It's like trying to grab air with your bare hands.

:)

Sometimes, I think "free will" is simply the Ability to say Yes...or No.

To anything, to everything. And that simple choice determines all reality for us. So it's a Powerful gift - or option - no matter how you "choose" to view it. No pun intended.

Should I get up today? Should I go to work? Should I think this? Should I do that. Should I love this or that person? Should I be nice, or cruel?

The inability to Choose, is imprisonment. It is the Absence of free will, and most of us know Very well about that.

So "free will" is Wonderful - when we can Choose it.

*hugs*

Doorknob, I don't believe in Christianity. I believe in Jesus Christ. I know for a fact that he is real, He leads and guides me, and following him for 30 years was the only choice I could have made. I have no doubt with my anger and depression, I would have been dead by now, if Christ had not changed me, and continues to change me.

I know the voice of God, and it has never led me wrong. But, I believe that if the whole thing was not real, it is still the right underlying philosophy of "loving your neighbor as yourself" which is the basis of an altruistic society. Anything else is just feeding the natural selfish desires and ego of humans.

But I do not believe that in my own strength, I would ever have the power to follow the basic tenets of Christianity. I am a very strong willed and prideful person by nature. Christ is working on that, but it is part of the journey.

I think that this kind of introspection is a blind alley. I tried many of them in my day, including agnosticism and atheism. I also studied all the religions of the world, and many cults. In the end, I am thankful that Christ saved me. I can only praise God that he loved me so much that He went to the cross to die for me, while I was yet a sinner.

Of course, I am still a sinner, but my hope is the promise the Bible gives that I will increasingly reflect the light and the glory of Christ, as he changes me into his image.

It seems like a very simplistic philosophy, but the more I study the Bible, the deeper and the more real it becomes. Because it works. I have more peace and joy and love than I ever did in all my days of making my own wrong, willful choices.

"Trust in the Lord and lean not to your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge him and he will make your paths straight." Proverbs 3:5-6.

This is the life verse I am meditating on right now. I know how difficult it is to understand from a modern or post modern perspective. All I can say is, it works!

I do think our brain capacity can limit our free will. For some it is a harder job than others. Someone may be fit and trim and attribute this to their excellent willpower, but have you ever been ravenous that you would of ate just about anything? Of course you have and even the fit person has experienced this. Some people have more of a drive to eat than others and through no fault of their own they are a little overweight. They may even deny their own drives more than the fit guy because the fit guy doesn't experience those strong appetite drives as often. Some people have it easier than others.

I think you make a good point. Brain function does play a role in freewill or lack thereof. I have chosen to go back to school, but years of depression and indecisiveness prevented me from doing so in the past.

to me free will has more to do with things like religion, Deciding to be a good or bad person, make choices of my own in the moment.

I guess my main point on free will is, I know that I have choices and can make choices when I am doing so well I probably run circles around the other guys and back.

But on a bad day I learned I Was having trouble because I could have been raped. On a good day I would never get taken advantage of in such a way. I did not have a choice on that matter my brain would not let me! I was not aware of things there for it would be impossible for me to make a good choice if any choice at all. On those days it is like I am running on pure instinct. I only do anything at all that is in my normal ritual. Other wise the thought to do something else would never even occur to me.

I admit I probably do find the subject of free will interesting because there are some religious aspects to it. I think even non religious people probably believe in free will to some extent.

My example of the difference of free will and the limited amount of will we have now would be this.

In life we learn every thing is cause and effect. We are slaves to that cause and effect. Always trying to achieve the effect we want and avoid the effect we don't want. If we had free will there wouldn't be any effect to worry about. For example picking what you want to eat for dinner. Seems harmless at a glance but it has an effect (health wise you could get fat, or death if you don't eat dinner). Free will would mean we could make a choice and it would not effect any thing. Other wise the will is not free it comes with a price attached. So we are all slaves to the cause and effect. And any one who doesn't make choices based on out come is probably very insane. And any one else who doesn't make choices based on it might just be mentally handy capt. So maybe free will is always an illusion.

I'm not complaining I understand and except that, what we have now is reality (good or bad you decide). But I think the term free will implies something more than just you have a choice in the matter.

By the way Angela I understand you have a very strong belief in god, (while I admit I do not really believe in god) but I would avoid saying "I know it's true!"

The truth is you do not know any more than any other human on earth. You simply have a very strong belief! And there is nothing wrong with that.

But I will say this, you could have done the same thing even if you didn't believe in Christ! I myself do not believe that Christ was an actual person who existed. But I do agree with the over all message of Christ. And I work hard to improve my self every day that I have it in me to do so! I'm not saying I'm perfect either all though as an idealist I would in truth like to be perfect.

Your belief is what inspired you to change that is your motivation to do so. Apparently just improving your life wasn't enough for you and it's not for many (And many are just clueless as how to do so). I'm sorry to say but the fact that your belief changed your life does not qualify as proof that Christ is real or existed. Many many people find various religions inspiring, and they also find it life changing which then re enforces their belief.

But Christianity is not unique to it! You sound just like every other religious person I know! Strong in your convictions and impressed by the same things every one belonging to any other religion is impressed with. I'm glad that you found something that worked for you that alone is an amazing wonderful thing and a blessing.!

That is why I remain agnostic! I require proof! I won't just blindly believe something with out it! But it's not like I just sit around saying I can do what ever the hell I want because there's no god! (and not because I have free will either LOL.) Nor do I feel that the only reason to do the right thing and improve one's self is because there is a god. Either way every one should work on it to the best of their abilities. And I think over all most folks do. But some may not ever get to a point in their life that they realize some improvement is needed.

Doorknob, since this is O/T and we are talking about philosophy/religion, I just want you to know that I was a "doubting Thomas" too. I just couldn't believe, and didn't know whether Jesus was real or not.

The Bible says that "faith is the evidence of things not seen" But Thomas would not believe that the other disciples had seen a risen Jesus "until he put his fingers in the scars on his hands and side."

When Jesus entered the room, he made Thomas do what he said he needed to have proof it was really Jesus. Then Thomas knelt down and said, "My Lord and my God."

Well, similar to me. When you hear the voice of God (not manic) and it tells you that He is real, and to serve him, and everything He says comes to pass, it is real. And it was a voice of such power and love, but yet so real, more real than life itself. I've only heard that voice that clearly a few times since, and it was more than enough "proof" to me.

I know that is experience based, but other than inventing a time machine and taking you back in space and time and showing you Jesus, I don't think there is any other way to prove it.

And besides, many in the 1st century did see Jesus, and his miracles and heard his teaching and did not believe. Even his disciples did not get what he was talking about, despite having walked with him for 3 years. They went back to fishing after he was crucified.

And following Jesus is different than any other world religion. Because the tomb was empty. But no one believed the women, who were first there to see to his body. And even his own disciples did not recognize him, because they were so blinded by their own preconceptions.

I would suggest you read some of Lee Strobel's books, like Case for Christianity. Or CS Lewis. They both set out to disprove Christianity and became great apologists for the faith. But it still is not proof. Proof for me was a sovereign act of God.