Moy: I'm trying to understand how the ND determines your clotting time is where it needs to be. I read normal values are not ok for stroke prevention for people with afib:

For Warfarin (Coumadin), the dose is adjusted so that the prothrombin time is longer than normal (by about 1.5 to 2.5 times the normal value or INR values 2 to 3). It involves Prothrombin time.

I hope that is what your good readings are. If it is around 1 INR, that is the normal value. If you have afib and are on Coumadin, they want it at 2 to 3.

I read there are 5 different blood clotting factors they can measure. Sounds complicated.

Dabigatran works by binding to thrombin in the clotting process described above and blocking its action. This stops the formation of fibrin, the essential component of blood clots. Dabigatran can therefore prevent blood clots from developing. So INR isn't the measure that is important. It works another way...PTT. Partial thromboplastin time (PTT) is a blood test that looks at how long it takes for blood to clot. It can help tell if you have bleeding or clotting problems.

Anyway, I'm interested in how your ND gets your INR where it needs to be.

Thanks!

petey

Moy, i think Petey is concerned about you and so am i.....especially stopping the anticoagulant. Is your ND adding any natural supplements to replace the pradaxa? I don't understand the test of your clotting time either....I think you should be very cautious with this. At least consider taking a daily aspirin.

Petey,

Nattokinase works like Pradaxa, it dissolves fibrin in the blood. So, you just check for PT/PTT and not INR, which is for Coumadin.

Also, you can check Fibrinogen in your blood, which indicates the amount of fibrin in the blood.

Along with natto, you should take stuff like garlic, vit E, turmeric, and ginger.

I test my clotting time and make sure it is around 15 seconds or so, which is the upper limit. I make sure my Fibrinogen is less than 300 (unit?). Now, I am not sure if the mentioned values are okay or not.

I am wondering what are the values for PT/PTT and Fibrinogen when someone takes Pradaxa. I wish there was more studies about natto. It works the same as Pradaxa except it is dirt cheap since NOBODY can patenet it and make a multi-bil $ business out of it.

My mom with permanent afib was taking natto for about 10 years before she got a stroke because she was forgetting to take her natto (unfortunately). The scan showed her carotid arteries had lots of plaque built up and they were very narrow already. Also, she always had very high blood pressure even with medication.

Scott

I've heard about natto. I just looked it up on wiki (not that it is a medical website) to see what they say:

"Nattokinase is sometimes promoted in the alternative medicine community as a clot-buster and blood thinner or as a substitute for daily aspirin therapy. However, there is no evidence that nattokinase is effective in preventing cardiovascular disease.[9] Additionally, in 2008 it was reported that a patient who had been using aspirin to prevent a secondary stroke suffered an acute cerebellar hemorrhage after taking 400 mg of nattokinase daily for seven consecutive days.

There does appear to be evidence for the effectiveness of nattokinase in treating heart disease."

I don't know if Moy is taking natto.

I just don't trust something like natto that hasn't been tested and proven.

Moy: I hope you don't mind me expressing my concern. Think of me as a mother in law that can't help herself.

petey

Scott,
You've lost me. How do you test your clotting time? Is this a test you do at home?
Typically, when on coumadin, the lab test done is a protime. It measures PT and INR. A theraputic INR (2.0-3.0) would correlate with a PT measured in seconds of somewhere in the range of 20-30+ seconds. If this is the PT you refer to, then 15 seconds is not anywhere near where you should be to be effectively anticoagulated.
But we may not be talking about the same test?.
I agree that some studies of natto would be nice, I like the idea of taking less chemicals.

I was taking a high dose of natto when I developed 3 clots, one in my leg and two in my lungs. They said they could find no reason for me
to have clots. There have been no big studies on natto. It was a
learning experience for me.

Hi Marikay,

I buy the PT/PTT online and perform the test at LabCorp. The results are emailed to me from the place I bought the test rather than going to a doctor. Here is a link to it:
http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/ItemLC020321/PT-PTT-Blood-Test.html

Thanks a million, you have answered the question that I have had about taking natto. That is the clotting time. I always wanted to take enough natto to be on the safe side. But, I did not know what PT value I should shoot for. Taking 100 mg twice per day is giving me 15 sec, which you say it is NOT long enough. I also have to be careful not to make my blood too thin since I go hiking. Sometimes, I am out 6 to 8 miles in rough terrain. A fall and bleeding would be fatal. That is the reason I did not go with Coumadin way back.

I may increase my PT to 18 or 20 by taking more natto (100 mg three time per day). Please tell me again if you are sure that the 20 to 30 seconds for PT is what they shoot for when someone takes Coumadin.

Missd12932, what is your definition of high dose? 100, 200, 400 mg of natto several times per day? Natto only last for 12 hours in the body. So, It must be taken at least every 12 hours, otherwise its effect wears off. So, I am not sure how you were taking your natto. I am very diligent in taking my natto. I know stroke is NOT fun specially for a person like me who is always running around. Please let us know about the dosage that you are taking and possibly about your PT when they tested you in the hospital/ER. Thank you.

I also get pharmaceutical grade natto. It is Allergy Research brand from Japan. It is a lot more expensive than other brands. But, I look at it as a necessity.

I sop taking natto for one day before donating blood.

Marikay, thanks again for your feedback. I appreciated very much.

By the way, I am pretty sure Moy is taking natto too. So, she can use this info too.

Scott

This is from Dr. Davies
The nattokinase scam
Posted on April 28, 2007 by Dr. Davis
A conversation about vitamin K2 commonly leads to confusion. Several people have asked about something called nattokinase.

The scientific data on the potential role of vitamin K2 deficiency in causing both osteoporosis and vascular calcification is fascinating. Along with vitamin D3, vitamin K2 may be an important factor in regulation of calcium metabolism. Supplementation may prove to be a major strategy for inhibition of vascular calcification.

Obtaining K2 in the diet is tricky, since its present in just a handful of foods: egg yolks, liver, traditional cheeses, and natto. This is where the confusion starts.

Natto is a Japanese fermented soy product. Ive had it and its quite disgusting. Nonetheless, Japanese who eat natto experience less fracture. (A parallel study in heart disease has not been performed.) Natto is also a source of another substance called nattokinase.

Advocates (otherwise often known as supplement distributors) claim that nattokinase is a fibrinolytic, or blood clot-dissolving, preparation that improves blood flow, protects from blood clots, and prevents heart attacks and strokes.

Dont you believe it. This is patent nonsense. There are several problems with this rationale:

Any oral fibrinolytic agent is promptly degraded in the highly acid environment of the stomach. Thats why all medically used fibrinolytics are given intravenously. Drug companies have struggled for years to encapsulate, modify, or somehow protect protein (or polypeptide) products taken orally from degrading this way. Theyve never succeeded. Thats why, for instance, growth hormone (a polypeptide) remains an injection, not an oral agent. An oral growth hormone, by the way, would sell like mad, so the drug companies would very much like to figure out how to bypass the degradative effects of stomach acid. One of the researchers behind the nattokinase claims boasts that he has single-handedly figured out how to protect the nattokinase molecule in the gastrointestinal tract. However, he wont tell anybody how he does it. Right.

Fibrinolytic agents are extremely dangerous. In years past, we used to treat heart attacks with intravenous fibrinolytic agents like tissue plasminogen activator, urokinase, streptokinase, and others. They have fallen by the wayside, for the most part, because of limited effectiveness and the unavoidable dangers of their use. Fibrinolytics are dumb: they dissolve blood clots in both good places and bad. While they might dissolve the blood clot causing your heart attack, they also degrade the tiny clot in your cerebral (brain) circulation that was protective. Thats why fatal brain hemorrhages, bleeding stomach ulcers, and blood oozing from strange places can also occur with fibrinolytic administration. Believe me, Ive seen it happen, and Ive watched people die from them.

The idea that a small dose taken orally is healthy is ridiculous. Even if nattokinase worked, why the heck would you take an agent that has known dangerous and very real consequences?

Dont let this idiocy reflect poorly on the K2 conversation, which, I believe, holds real merit and is backed by legitimate science. This is symptomatic of a larger difficulty with the supplement industry: Insane and unfounded claims about one supplement erodes credibility for the entire industry. It gives regulation-crazed people like the FDA ammunition to go after supplements, something none of us need. You and I have to sift through the nonsense to uncover the real gems in this rockpile, real gems like vitamin D3, omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil, and, perhaps, vitamin K2. But not nattokinase.

Hi missd,

I am NOT sure who Dr. Davies is, but I can tell you that he is dead wrong about nattokinase. I am a data-guy, meaning I always like to see proof that something works. In the case of natto, the PT/Fibronogen bloo test are telling me that the oral nattokinase works and thins the blood. If I increase my dosage of natto, my PT (blood clot time) increases and my Fibrinogen (fibrin in the blood) decreases. So, I am NOT sure where this doctor is getting his data. There are all kinds of studies that show nattokinase thins the blood and you have to be careful how much you are taking. PT/Fibrinogen blood test MUST be your guide.

Unfortunately, there have not been any formal studies to determine the proper dosage for natto. So, user has to be very aware of the consequences of taking too much or too little. Basically, you are on your own when you are taking natto.

By the way, Dr Davies is correct about taking K2 vitamin. K2 (in eggs and some fermented foods) is NOT involved in blood clotting. K2 is necessary for the calcium to go to the bones rather than to lining of arteries and joints. Vitamin K1 (in greens) is involved in blood clotting. K1 and K2 are two different vitamins. Unfortunately, medical community do NOT differentiate between them, at least until recently.

Well, I am taking pretty good dose of K2 (as MK4 and MK7). However, I am going for a PT/Fibrinogen blood test to make sure the K2 is NOT really affecting my PT timing. My policy for things in life is TRUST and VERIFY. After getting my PT blood test results, I will report to this forum the outcome.

According to recent studies, it is CRUCIAL to take vitamin K2 (as MK4 or MK7) if you are taking calcium and vitamin D3. Vitamin D3 causes more calcium to get absorbed. But, you need vitamin K2 in the blood so the calcium to go to your bones. Otherwise, the calcium will end up in soft tissues like the linings of the arteries. So, if you are afraid to take vitamin K2 or eat eggs (with yoke), then you are better off NOT to take any calcium supplements. Food for thoughts!

Scott

Dr Davys is a cariologist and has just written Wheat Belly. A best seller.
I think i had his name spelled wrong. He also has a site called Stop
the Plack.

It's Dr Davis:

http://www.medpedia.com/news_analysis/68-The-Heart-Scan-Blog/entries/28562-Near-death-experience-with-nattokinase

I'm taking about about 16000 FU'S of Natto per day of Dr.s Best for about 3 months now. Anyone have any idea if this is too much or not enough?

Hi keepumping,

You should get a blood test for PT/PTT and fibrinogen ASAP to see what is your clotting time. Only a blood test can show if you are taking too much or not enough.

I am taking Allergy Research brand. I am taking 100 mg (2000FU) twice per day. So, that is 4000FU per day. My PT time is about 14 seconds.

According to marikay on this post, when you take Coumadin, they shoot for 20to 30 second clot time. So, I am thinking to increase my intake of natto to bump my clot time. However, you might be taking too much. Please get a blood test and know for sure where you are. Here is a link if you want to buy the test online:

http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/ItemLC020321/PT-PTT-Blood-Test.html

http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/ItemLC001610/Fibrinogen-Quantitative-Blood-Test.html

For the above blood tests, you must go to a LabCorp with the order from the Life Extension. The results are sent to you directly.

Or you can ask your doctor to give the tests to you.

Buddy, be careful with that natto. It can make your blood too thin, which may NOT be cool! Treat it as a drug and NOT candy :-)

Scott

Thanks Scott, I'll get the blood tests. Are they something I can do without having a blood draw at a Dr's office?

Thanks for correcting the name. pacyetep