Whoops, the above is a response to postings #43 and #45. Got the numbers wrong.

I meant #43 and #44. Wow, I am still waking up!

Fair answers Buck...and how you see things is just grand...for you, wouldn't want it any other way :)

Things on DS have always been this way. People with a drink problem...generally...have a tendency towards denial, rationalisation, warped perceptions...many of us have come to see this in ourselves as we quit and sometimes it's apparent as others go through the same process.

So "Support" is not always pom poms, rah rahs and ticker tape parades...sometimes it's about making sure people ask themselves the questions that should be asked :) Anyone who has been here for a while will probably agree there have been folks here over the years who got sicker and sicker continuing to drink or stayed dry but went off in to a mental la-la land because they got caught in particular ways of thinking.

That's their own business I guess, I was always advised to be open to questions others asked me, open to the possibility they might see something I couldn't...or perhaps not. If I stay honest to myself and ask the questions, I can take what i need and leave the rest :)

There have been a few posters who came to feel Alcohol "in general" was a harmful substance (to all) and best to abstain. I respect that but the difference for me is I see it as harmful for me...others are free to drink if they choose and many folks I know do so and never get in the scrapes I did.

Incidentally...I can't honestly say I know anyone who stopped JUST because they thought they couldn't control the amount they drank. There was always an "and"...lost control and doing harm, or just doing harm.

I do know of folks who couldn't quite relate to the loss of control idea...felt that they "had a grip" despite drinking too much, and the harm it causes.

I also know folks who find the "lack of control" idea distasteful...like it says something negative about them. The word "Powerless" is controversial for the same reason I think...people see it as negative, so a destructive way to think about things.

I appreciate why people feel that way, personally I think it's a boogey man...looks scarier from the outside then it does when you turn the lights on and look :)

It sounds as if your wife is glad you stopped and maybe worried for you or felt the consequences herself. Nice that she could support you too :)

P

Thanks for the reasonable and thoughtful response Paul.

Just for the record, I don't see the lack of control idea as "distasteful", I just don't think it applies to me personally. I never felt as though I was not the person (or power) in control. Obviously there are others who feel differently about their addictions. So be it.

Ok, Buck. To be clear, the social drinkers I was talking about aren't concerned about getting "too" drunk; they stop as soon as they begin to feel any effect at all because they don't enjoy it. Even the word "drunk" is too heavy to describe the piddly impact a single glass of wine has on their brains. So we will have to agree to disagree that everyone drinks for effect. What's been interesting to me over the years has been the large number of people I've met who actually do drink like that. I think it's because I don't surround myself with people who drink like I used to anymore. It's a big world out there when you don't spend your free time in a bar.

To answer your question, I could in fact stop at two if I absolutely had to, (like I was having dinner out with my mom), but I avoided those occasions whenever possible; and if I couldn't get out of it, I'd leave as soon as I could, and go a bar. Because I wanted to. I didn't like to put myself in any situation where I couldn't just keep on drinking if I wanted to.

I did not always end up face down on the bar, however. I called those times "successful" drunks, which meant I could remember going home, and I didn't recall doing anything ridiculously inappropriate. The problem was that I could never be sure if I would end the night as a successful drunk or something much worse. Home by midnight? Maybe. Maybe not. Take care of my kids in the morning? Sometimes. Sometimes we had to play "sick mommy" because I was too hung over to function. It was like playing alcohol roulette. I call myself an out-of-control alcoholic because it doesn't matter if I can control it sometimes. I can't control it EVERY time. When I least expect it, often when it matters most, I make an alcohol-induced decision that I don't want to.

Finally, you do know it sounds slightly insane for you say that you drink yourself into oblivion, knowing full well that you are going to be horribly sick because of it later, while at the same time insisting that you are completely aware and in control of what you're doing, right?

Insane? Not really. Why is it so hard for you to believe that I could know full well that I would have a huge hangover in the morning yet I was having so much fun being drunk that I simply did not care? I simply made the choice to keep getting hammered because I did not want the "fun" to end. That is not what I would call insane. Stupid maybe, but not insane. Do you mean to tell me that you are so out of control that you don't even know you will have a huge hangover the next day? That sounds more like insanity to me.

Saw this and thought of you Buck :))

http://www.mode.com/stories/7-reasons-booze-is-no-longer-cool/11669301

P

Great article Paul. Thanks. I gotta believe the new generation is smarter than I was about alcohol. That gives me hope for the future. On my last bicycle journey through Holland it really seemed to me that those people have evolved to a different level in regards to alcohol usage. Hopefully that is where we are headed too.

The whole reason I drank was to not be in control. I wanted to remove myself from life b/c I was unable to cope with things like the sun rising... Or heaven forbid the sun sets... Drink , drink till I was numb. I liked shortcuts and booze was the answer to ALL my problems. Or so I thought... Actually it was preventing me from growing. It was the problem , not the answer.

But I was so addicted ! I couldn't get sober for long enough to recognize I was sabotaging myself. Sure lots of fun but it had no substance. Today I enjoy the small things and don't sweat the big.

I'm also a lot less sensitive, that was a big thing, you hurt me I was going to get you back , double. The life I have now is I finally better.

1-2

Budda, I did notice the negative effects. I just didn,t care enough I guess and I was addicted to the stuff. Just overlooked it.

Sorry your going away mad. This is obviously not the best medium for two grown men to debate a serious issue. Too easy to get personally offended as well.

Well, yes Buck, that's exactly what I'm telling you. There was always the hope going in that I'd have one of my "successful" drunks and not wake up sick as a dog the next day. That's what I meant by alcohol-roulette. And of course that's insane! Color me an alcoholic!

So then you're saying that before you even picked up that first drink, you already knew you were in for a whopping hangover, but you did it anyway, because you just couldn't resist all the "fun" you were going to have while experiencing that pleasant feeling of being totally smashed? And you did that once a week for how long? The words self-destructive and masochistic come to mind -- but you can stick with stupid if that's more comfortable for you right now. To me, willfully putting yourself through that, on purpose, time and time again, still sounds pretty insane. Maybe even more than my thinking THIS time might not be so bad.

At any rate, you've stopped, and that's a good thing. Nothing wrong with questioning the concept of control, and I hope you've been able to look at it from more than one angle. Best of luck to you.

I lost a baby due to an ectopic pregnancy in april. I had no idea I was pregnant but I was such a heavy drinker I felt completely responsible and I tried my best to stay away since. I have this fear that if I drink something bad will happen and now when I do drink I feel so low and hopeless yet relieved at the same time......

PS. Buck, it makes no sense to say you were addicted to the stuff, and still claim you were always in control. Those conditions are mutually exclusive.