#11 should have read "relapse is setup and the act of drinking is by plan". It sounds like they don't teach that.

Most of those programs teach having a support network in place. Talking to others one has connected to. They say you gain back your "power" but truth is it's not entirely self will but reliance on the network at those stressful times. I personally don't believe in the mental blank spot AFTER ONE HAS BEEN SOBER FOR AT LEAST A MONTH and they are practicing some kind of program that replaces old habit with new.

Mark, what you say is true to an extent but not across the board. Every 12 Step oriented treatment center I have ever worked for taught that Spirituality was essential in the clients recovery. They did take clients out to 12 Step meetings of various kinds. Not just AA or NA but one even went to CA. The last hospital I worked actually had an Emotions Anonymous meeting weekly that came in for those with mental health issues. Is Spirituality discussed in depth? Not as far as I wish they would. This not due to the desire of the staff who are mostly recovering people themselves but constraints placed by the government, the insurance companies and by the diversity of religious backgrounds.

Every agency I have worked for have said that AA is for people who want to stop drinking and if they have other addiction issues ALONG WITH alcohol they should respect where they are at and speak the AA terminology. The only time I have EVER heard or told a client to go to AA without a drug problem was if, like in many small towns, NA wasn't available.

No agency I have ever worked for has said their program was a cure all. What is said is that the client will be able to detox and become clear minded enough to be given information, Their bodies will begin to heal and they gain a deeper understanding of physiology and the psychology of addiction and relapse. All have said "This is not recovery. Recovery starts when you walk out the door and put what you've been taught in to action."

I have to admit that the negative talk about treatment yanks my chain a bit. It was a treatment center that help me wake up enough to understand what the 12 Steps were really all about. I do know that I have been lucky regarding employment and not all of them are the same. Just where God put me.

the following was supposed to read

The only time I have EVER heard or told a client to go to AA without an alcohol problem was if, like in many small towns, NA wasn't available.

To my knowledge no agency discusses the traditions. As a matter of fact I have never seen anyone go near a traditions meeting until they DID have a grasp of the Steps. The steps can be a struggle at times by themselves. To add the traditions in as study when in early sobriety could be to confusing. I am only offering my experience. Like I said I got lucky. I DO know they aren't all like where I was blessed enough to work.

Another thing I have seen more of is AA reaching out to "Bridge the Gap" and have been highly successful. I believe I read some AA literature regarding that topic as well. That it's not up to the Agency to make the approach but to AA to approach the Agency

I knew I had seen it as well as referencing 2 or 3 others.

http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-49_BridgingTheGap.pdf

This about 12 Step work as it was in the beginning. True service work. AA knew they couldn't Change the direction of treatment so decided to carry the message where it was needed.

Well Mark. I guess it comes down to to following the directions that AA has laid out as regards this topic. Understand that there must be a line drawn by AA where it's a partnership not by affiliation but client centered. That AA is not a part of the agency but the agency references AA. We are Bridging the Gap to the Client. Offering the Client in that "slippery place" between the door of the agency and the door to the AA meeting. AA is AA and treatment is treatment. The literature itself states AA must abide by the rules of the agncy as "we are there guest". You seem to want to place some kind of blame on the treatment centers when in truth it's AA not following through with their own tenants and history. AA didn't start by staying hidden. It started because they went to the hospitals and were there when people left to help them get to meetings and such. Now it seems as if AA is sitting on it's duff waiting for them to find us. No wonder what we end up with is the guy getting his paper signed.

Jim, I guess the point is that AA doesnt try to change the direction of treatment, tries to work in a spirit of respect and cooperation, and is not affiliated in any with treatment centres.

However, and I stress that this is in my experience and therefore may not be universal, treatment centres do not seem to afford the same courtesy to AA. They send patients to meetings with some very strange ideas as to what AA "should" be, what is appropriate in meetings etc. There doesnt seem to be a whole lot of encouragement of respect of AA's traditions - one does not have to understand these completely to respect them when they are brought to ones attention.

The nearest meeting to where I live is in a treatment centre. The patients come (and I was one myself so there is no anti treatment bias here) and often introduce themselves as addicts, gamblers, compulsive overeaters etc etc etc, talk about everything under the sun apart from alcohol problems, treat the meeting as group therapy and a dumping ground for the issues of the day.

The AA members do not criticise the treatment centre but do try to point out that maybe some of these things are not how things are in AA - maybe explain a bit about why. A general response that I have had a lot is well in the treatment centre they told me I should do this, can do this, etc etc. Often i pick up an attitude of AA should change to suit me, rather than I should adapt to AA.

I totally agree that the way forward is always in the spirit of cooperation and respect but it does go both ways.

Apparently sane people arguing about something that the thread never even tried to address and still largely no coherent response to it.

Serenity, I hope you are not questioning my sanity !! lol.

I am a bit disappointed in the responses to be honest. I got well in AA but am genuinely interested in others ways people who are powerless over alcohol can get sober.

I don't want to be in a position of saying to people - AA is not the only way but be unable to offer up an alternative.

To me things like SMART and rationale recovery are based on pretty much the opposite of powerlessness so I wouldnt be able to suggest those to people who are powerless.

What are the alternatives?

Are we talking about will power against the first drink? Or are we talking about will power to change our lives.

Not sure I am eligible to have an opinion, but I know people who have quit drinking successfully for years by changing their lifestyles to focus, coincidentally, on many of the same principles that AA teaches, specifically a reliance on a higher power to guide them and subsequently a healthier approach to their own lives and service to others. Seems to me, AA is a structure for those of us who have none, one path to achieve wellness through principles not "invented" by Bill W.

AA is a roadmap, but I would guess there are other ways to achieve the same end.

Re-reading your post, Nicky, I guess I am agreeing with you :). To answer your question, I know of no other structured approach. "Rational Recovery" seems they might have a method but I don't know enough about it to say much.

As I've noticed a lot of people hate to appear powerless about anything. Most of the other programs have you recognize that you have a problem with alcohol/drugs, but basicly leave out the word powerlessness. Recognition of the problem is the point to where you can become empowered by a higher power or will power to be sober.

Hey how to live, that has been my experience that my recovery shares more similarities than differences with people who have followed a spiritual path outside of AA.

I guess I am talking about both staying away from the first drink and changing ourselves and our lives.

There is certainly nothing new in the program of AA, it has just been structured in a way to be of most use to alcoholics. Certainly there are many ways to get to a spiritual awakening. And spiritual principles are pretty universal.

I have checked out rational recovery but it is based on foundations which are completely in conflict with powerlessness as far as I can tell.

most of the worthwhile threads end up getting hijack.

so I'll try it again with cohesiveness.

Actually they ALL do (teach powerlessness) without saying it. With but a VERY few exceptions all programs teach abstinence. The idea that the addiction can be reawakened if one DOES drink/use is still taught. What is NOT taught is the mental blank spot. Relapse is set up unconsciously, then becomes a conscious plan and follows this order or close to it

crave.
obsess
get keys
walk or drive
get money
pay cashier
drive/walk to party place
open bottle
pour drink
put to mouth
swallow
drunk
at any place one COULD have said NO but will follow through only to emerge remorseful

Most of those programs teach having a support network in place. Talking to others one has connected to. They say you gain back your "power" but truth is it's not entirely self will but reliance on the network at those stressful times. I made that connection early on and am able to recognize it as a Spiritual connection , one that led me to th understanding I have now. I personally don't believe in the mental blank spot AFTER ONE HAS BEEN SOBER FOR AT LEAST A MONTH and they are practicing some kind of program that replaces old habit with new. "

It worked for me

I still don't understand why someone is powerless if they can on their own power say NO. If I can say no I have power.

From smart website:- "SMART Recovery teaches increasing self-reliance, rather than powerlessness."