I dont know CD, have asked the question many times and dont yet have an answer, but many programs are based on willpower such as smart recovery and rational recovery.

There was a posting many moons ago about a program called Lenair. Here is one of the postings. It raised some eyebrows and some tempers:

http://www.dailystrength.org/c/Alcoholism/advice/2452794-lenair-healing-center

What it does is for $3000 you are given three treatments. You start with a introductory meeting with a counselor. Your next treatment is by hypnotism. Your last is a meeting with the founder. There is no mention of powerlessness, nor of God or spirituality. Just hypnotism. One lady here even said she had not drank in 18 months because of the program. I wonder if after 3 years she can say the same thing? There is a link in the above to Lenair.com for anyone wanting to check it out.

http://www.dailystrength.org/c/Alcoholism/recs/163-lenair-technique

This is one that really got some hits. If you can go back to that time period in discussions you will find her other post that had some 100 plus hits.

Nicky,

This is really good for some to look in the mirror with honesty. I am "duel" as far as handling my BP and addiction with alcohol.

However, I don't like to mix my disorder with alcoholism on this forum. I deal with my bipolar differently than I do alcoholism. To me, they are different. Yes, one can make the other exaggerated or worse.

My life is to keep myself healthy with my Dr. and AA. To me, they are separate.

I deal with my bipolar with others here who can get it and understand. We know who we are... At least some of us. A disorder with alcohol is MORE than self destructive.

Whether on meds or not. It's a place no one can understand unless you live it.

I want to say that with my BP, I have manged it about 85%. Most days are good. Some days, no so much. Other days are GREAT!

I have a really good Dr. who has helped me even though most people don't get it (as far as mental disorders) here....

Bottom line for me is that it is a separate issue.

I am sensitive to anyone who may be in this kind of turmoil.

All I can do is offer my help but my feeling and knowledge is AA.

AA will help with any addiction.

I happen to know quite few AA members who entered the program and were able to set the bottle aside with no problem. Many of those still attend AA with 10's of years of recovery. They speak openly hitting THEIR bottom yet they also say they don't meet the criteria of the "real" alcoholic the BB gives. I am one of them. I lost everything, I mean everything. I was multi addicted. Pretty much would do anything in front of me. As BBH has said over and over i had to address each one of those individually as relates to powerlessness.

I attended NA strictly in the beginning and DID hang on by shear force of will. That and sticking with others that wanted to remain free from the horror of that previous life. One day I needed a meeting or I was going to loaded. The only one available was at a place called Club 12 in San Antonio. Many there knew me from when I was in rehab and because they were in NA as well. I was welcomed as I was and given the chance to find out on my own. NA left me wanting at the time. I found it in AA. The camaraderie, the laughter, the smiles and handshakes finally evolved in to hugs and I understood that spirituality was not getting all religious but was in the connection I made with others. Through them I heard a message of hope and of freedom.

Yes it WAS easy for me to stop using and no I have not had to drink or drug since. What I do struggle with is my negative self and a tendency toward depression. I no longer combat addiction in ANY of it's forms. I use the 12 Steps in every aspect of my life. I know I am powerless over people places, things and situations. I know that the only thing I have any power over is me and that power resides within my self. That power is reinforced by my Faith and the people in the meeting.

I was first shown what I had done to myself physically and found that some, not all, could be reversed. I was then shown how my thinking had become twisted and how I could straighten it out. My "spiritual awakening" came slowly as I opened myself more to that message and ya know what? No one told me I "had to have a spiritual experience" nor lead a spiritual life. It just happened. Over the years most of the people I talk to explain their "conversion" in a similar way.

If had been introduced to the program with sarcasm, derogatory remarks or constant bickering I would be dead now. because I would have left and not returned.

I don't know of any other program which is based on powerlessness. AA seems to be the only game in town.

That first line was meant to read quite A few.
As in many

nope, read the promises treatment center literature ("it is not a disease", they say.) lindsay lohan went there and i would probably too just for the experience if i had the 50,000+ (i like being given menus). but no. no one.

But Jim do you know of any other programs where powerlessness is a foundation and recovery is not based on will power?

Actually they ALL do without saying it. With but a VERY few exceptions all programs teach abstinence. The idea that the addiction can be reawakened if one DOES drink/use is still taught. What is NOT taught is the mental blank spot. That relapse is setup and the act of drinking is by plan.

crave.
obsess
get keys/walk
get money
pay cashier
drive/walk to party place
open bottle
pour drink
put to mouth
swallow
drunk

at any place one COULD have said NO

nod -- are you saying that other programs don't give tools to help prevent relapse? That other programs miss something, a "mental blank spot" that doesn't prevent people from getting drunk?

Really?

Jim if they are based on the fact that at any point one could say no how is that being powerless? I think i am misunderstanding something.

I really think you are making a pretty big assumption, Nicky. Not basing recovery around powerlessness does NOT mean that you have to use will power to abstain.

BTW, I can't really speak from personal experience to any structured program in a group-type setting. I quit on my own and since then have read about other programs and used some tools to help me on my own path. There is no way in HELL I could have gotten sober using will power.

I don't think I could of stayed in a Rehab.......I signed myself into a mental place once.....within 15 mins I was spitting mad that I had heard them discuss another patient.

I walked out

I suppose in retrospect....,any excuse will do

Hey ex jersey, i guess I dont understand as the way I was seeing it is that if have the power to stop i would use it and if I didnt have the power to stop I would be powerless and therefore need something other than will power.

If a method is not based on me being powerless does that not mean that I am therefore using my own power?

I appreciate your different experience and am interested to know if you quit on your own but did not use your own power how that works - where does the "power" come from as it were?

Just trying to broaden my concept of how it works for other people :-)