Are u an atheist?

Glad you posted this Bob. It makes perfect sense to me.

When I stopped drinking I could find a lot of faults with AA and plenty of reasons to avoid having anything to do with the programme of recovery. Then someone told me that I didnt even have to have faith that it worked all that I needed to begin with was to believe that if it worked for other people, it would work for me too. Now, I can see from my own experience that it works and so I can now have faith in it.

I dont know what the higher power is and I am not too worried about what label it should be given. All I know is that some force that I do not understand has taken me through some pretty rough patches and guided me to where I am now. I have faith in that force.

I was born and brought up Roman Catholic but I seem to get more from going to AA meetings then I do from going to church. I think it's because I have faith that something good will happen, that I will get what I need, and help staying clean and sober.

I posted this because alot of atheists seem to struggle with the spirituality part of the 12 steps so I hope this helps.

Very cool

Just like when they say in AA that you can you use anything as your higher power in AA (the group, a tree, etc..) this theory is flawed. How are you supposed to turn your life over to a such things? How are you supposed to pray to patience to take away your character defects? How are you supposed to pray to tolerance to show you the way? How are you supposed to pray to a tree to help you through the night?

You can pray to a diety (God) to show you these things or to grant you these things...but you cannot pray to these things indivdually. If you are not a true atheist then you do not understand that we just simply do not believe in such a thing. To believers there is always something out there guiding them...whether they CHOOSE to listen or not. For an atheist we do not have a CHOICE...there simply is nothing there.

You may say that we CHOOSE to believe there is no God but think of it this way, do you choose whom you fall in love with? It is either in your heart or it isn't. When people struggle with the HP concept in AA they are often told that they are not willing enough or not trying hard enough. This is bullshit IMO.

The Dalai Lama is writing and speaking a lot at present about the need for Morality without Religion. He makes it quite clear that there is no problem with religion or belief systems, just that the have become confused. In fact, he's not even talking about Morality as we commonly understand it.

I will speak for myself and others I have met in these rooms. We don't treat other humans with love because we fear a "Punishing God" or wish to be rewarded, we do so because we this is the true nature of the world. When we take such an attitude we begin to find a "Loving God" which bears little resemblance to what we THOUGHT Gods were supposed to look like.

This, for me has been the basis of a Spiritual Experience, but it's a very personal thing. I wouldn't describe myself as an Atheist but it hasn't been a matter of picking a religious system "off the peg". When we hear someone say "God", we can't help but think of some religion or other, remembering things we dislike or hearing what isn't there. Jumping at Ghosts, you might say :o)

Paul

I'm with Zen on this one, but thanks, Bob, for a very good and thoughtful attempt to extend a bridge for the non-believers.

Quite often, the secret problem with the Atheist is that they want the kind of God who will 'Solve their problems'! There is ample evidence that God doesn't do this with any predictability, so it looks like everything is sewn up beyond a doubt :o)

Bob's approach seems more useful to me than most as a way of getting out of this particular trap

Way to be dismissive Paul! IMO contrary to your theory most atheist are not looking for some else to solve their problems. We accept that no one caused our problems but us and that no one can solve our problems but us. I find that it is normally the believers that go around saying why won't God help me.

:o). Not being dismissive at all Tiff, I'm talking about something real and I'm speaking as someone whose skin used to crawl at the mention of the word God.

Good men of all spiritual and religous traditions understand the concept of personal responsibility. AA is steeped in it. When "Religion" gets knocked, people are normally judging the primtive, dependant variety. Two sides to the 3rd and 7th step prayers...

I thought we were talking about an HP not religion. AA is splattered with religion so you won't win that arguement...your 3rd and 7th step prayers are a perfect example of that. BTW not interested in anymore of your snide comments via PM so please refrain from sending anymore. Thanks.

Nice post anyway Bob, sorry for the diversion...and a well-played game of poor me from Tiff :o).

And they say this is a self-centred illness ;o)

Paul...no made no such comments that would indicate self pity of a poor me mentality. Maybe you should take a look at yourself and ask why it is that you felt the need throw out personal jabs.

But I guess that couldn't be because you are spiritually fit eh?

When I came into AA I was agnostic and I still am In the first couple of years I feared some kind of subtle trap of luring lapsed christians back into the fold
I certainly didnt want to end up being addicted to praying so I was very wary
In sobriety it has been part of my jouney to examine research quite a large cross section of potential higher powers At this moment I really appriciate at the meetings I attend at the end We are invited to "using the word GOD as you do or DONT understand" join in the serenity prayer This I can do with honesty and meaning as I dont understand now or probably no time soon undrstand GOD

I greatly appreciate all of these comments whether for or against this idea of Atheists grasping the faith ideal.
EHA teaches that if we open the door of faith just a crack, then our Higher Power will open it the rest of the way, whoever or whatever that Higher Power may be!

I can't explain many of the good things that came my way since I quit drinking and began going to AA meetings, but they just make my faith all the more deeper and richer.