Step 8...

"Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all"

...Then it seems pretty simple to me. I have hurt people for sure, including my parents and I am more than willing to make amends if it is appropriate. Not sure why it seems confusing.

There were few people that I owed amends to that I did not also think had done harm to me. In some cases I was angry about the things that they had done to me.

The willingness came when I was more able to focus on what I had done than what they had done. Sort of like moving through the columns in step 4 - the more I was focused on why i am angry, the less I could see what was my part in it!

If you have the list of people you harmed and the willingness to make an amend for no other reason than the fact that it is owed then sounds like you are good to go on step 9. This isnt about dealing in detail with the complex relationships we have though it can open the door to that. It is about doing what we should do in reaction to realising the harm we have done. Looking forward to step 9 before I had done the other steps I dreaded it. I could really tell I was changing spiritually when I found that i wanted to do it. Not because of the selfsih motivation that it might make me feel better but because I knew that it was the right thing for me to do.

Hmm.

It seems tricky to me.

Tara,

It has been my experience that when guilt over some shameful incident from my past has come up, the actual root of the problem hasn't been in the distant past at all. In every case I can think of, the sense of shame or guilt wasn't solvable by analyzing old relationships, but was actually traceable to some resentment and refusal to forgive that I was holding onto, or an overdue amends that I was avoiding, right in the here and now.

Here's just one story about all that. I'm both an alcoholic and an ACOA, and in my case there was no lasting relief from the lingering affects of the latter until I got down to being really serious about cleaning my side of the street. I know that sounds paradoxical if not downright contradictory, but the results have been both exhilarating and lasting.
Now strange to say, my mother who died in 1988 was the alcoholic, while my father who survived her by eight and a half years was the wimpy martyr enabler and had always been the focus of my resentments and crippling insecurities, as he always waffled between being a buffer between us kids and her drunken rages. Then without warning he would turn right around and take her side of things against us. Consequently, one of the amends I worked hardest on in my first several years of sobriety was my relationship with him.

Yet after he died sixteen years ago, I still had this chronic, low grade hum in my head, like a tape that kept repeating that I could and should have done more. My aunt even said, "That's crazy. He was a very difficult man and you got closer to him than any of us. We were frankly all amazed that you two got along so well. Let it go." But I couldn't let it go, and I kept sifting through my memories, looking for the root cause of my festering and demoralizing guilt.

Meanwhile, in a faraway state and in a seemingly unrelated incident, I had borrowed some money in about 1986 from a fellow businessman and never paid him back. To me it was a small fortune, while to him I'm still sure it was pocket change, so during my first seven or eight years of sobriety I never could have paid it all at once, and I didn't want him knowing where I lived and nagging me. Besides, I rationalized, he was rich and the amount was very small by his standards, and so I tried to "grandfather" the whole thing into oblivion.

In early '98 I realized that thanks entirely to some money my father had left me, I could easily pay Arnie back in one lump sum. I called directory assistance, got the phone number, called it and asked the company operator where I might send something to his personal attention. Without leaving my desk, I hung up the phone, pulled out my checkbook, an envelope and a stamp, and started writing. As soon as I had placed the envelope where I always put my outgoing mail, that guilt "tape" in my head stopped and has never started again since that moment.

Can you say what it is that seems tricky?

Interesting Nemo.

My dad was the alkie and my mom has always been sweet as pie. I have been sincerely trying to make living amends to her because I never let her be a mom to me. But the rage I feel around her is enough that I want to put my fist through the wall sometimes. And then I feel horribly guilty for having those feelings.

There are some little things here and there that don't seem significant to me, but I will consider them. One of my biggest guilts is that I almost never sent birthday or thank you cards to anyone for gifts or kindness or the like. I have been ungrateful or at least expressly ungrateful my whole life. Again, I feel like it is the living amends that have to happen.

Stuff to think about for sure.

Nicky...

My sponsor says I absolutely do not owe my parents an amends.

I think maybe she thinks my behavior was the natural response and that I shouldn't feel guilty. She also knows that I tend to feel guilty and responsible for everything which is true to some degree. It is difficult to know what exactly I might OWE an amends for.

I tried to emancipate myself when I was 16 or 17 because I was not happy at home. It wasn't all wrong on my part, but like I said my parents did the best they could. I think I hurt them deeply when I did that. In fact when they confronted me about it, I backed down because I sensed how much it was hurting them. It is THIS sort of thing that I did in many different ways that I think hurt them. I shoved them away constantly.

I find that maybe I am having trouble forgiving them because they have no idea what went wrong and I am having trouble seeing my part in it except that I responded in rebellion which my sponsor sees as natural.

I am trying not to see THEIR part and just clean up my side, but it is confusing.

I keep going back to... "willing" to make an amends. I don't have to have the answer today, right? I know I hurt them so they make the list and I know I am willing until I know it's the right thing to do.

As sad as it is, my dad is easy because he passed away years ago. It's my mom that I worry about today. I can't make the amends until I am able to change, and I also don't think I can even talk to her about it without spontaneously combusting from unprocessable emotion. :-\

My sponsor suggested I just pray for both of them.

Its really hard to say anything meaningful to help over the internet as if this was a sponsee I would know all sorts of background and info about your life and your relationship with your parents that obviously i dont know and it would take long conversations to find out.

If i was working with you and we were looking at amends to your parents I would start of with step 4 and the my part in things column in relation to the resentments you had against your parents. What information does that provide?

I also would probably work backwards rather than focusing about things further in the past that you feel guity about. Guilt is not necessarily an indication that an amend is due. Lavk of guilt not necessarily an indication that no amend is due.

What has your relationship been like with your mother in the last 5 years? What hurt have you caused in that time?

Btw I am not saying that you do owe amends to your parents. Dont want to put myself in position of saying I know better than your sponsor as she obviously knows way more than me about you and your relationships. Just suggesting ways to look at things to find out if you think amends are due. I dont know the answers!

Nicky... that's a good idea actually. Maybe I am too fixated on my childhood. I can definitely work on the more recent stuff like how I was not there for my mom when my dad died. I think maybe the living amends are the most important, too. My relationship with her today is getting better but I have a long way to go with it.

Thanks for all the feedback!

Tara, for me, the answer would lie in Reply#4, 1st paragraph and Reply#10, last sentence.

Crap, I meant Reply#9, last sentence.

Oh my god, yes. I made amends to my father for my part in our dysfunctional relationship. I still think he's a complete jerk, and I don't want a relationship with him. I've put this into a god box, I've prayed about it, I've talked to my sponsor about it. I won't drink over it, though I havent been able to fully let go of my anger and accept that he is who he is, and will never ever change. I can do one, but not both, for a period of time.
I think I may need some outside help dealing with the intricacies of this relaitonship or lack thereoff. Its on my to do soon list.

sticky,

I like that.The problem with making amends to parents and siblings is always our instinct to win their approval. One of early wake-up calls in sobriety was that my good Irish Catholic family was determined to sabotage my sobriety any way they could. My sister even called it betrayal, and there were several dicey moments when my father and brother pushed drinks on me. And that's why this is Step 9, and not Step 2.