Whoops! If you knew my sponsor.

wow what is a AA zealot or a bleeding deacon? SOme on here use terms they dont even have the definition too. A bleading deacon acording to the 12 traditions is a AA member who once had a position in a home group where he was looked up to but the group decided to nominate another person to that position and the old timmer then cops a resentment and goes around undermining the group thru gossip and the like. Thats a bleeding deacon now since jim is the only facilitator i see on this group and the other guy who I cant remember his name regaurdless netiher one has done any of that.
So get your terms right for what your talking about first off secondly you mentioned AA zealots what is that? Are you refering to some on here who take the time out to share thier exp on what it was like what happened and what its like today?
Some members of this site have varied exp with AA and all its aspects and choose to be kiond enough to share thier exp here in the hopes that some on here that choose AA wont have to go thru the same mistakes that they had getting done to be finnaly at AA doing whats outlined in the BB.
I value everyones exp that comes here if it will prevent me from fialing to live by these spiritual principles. I have gotten much more than sobriety this time in aa. I got recovery thru all 12 steps and wether anyone on here chooses to do is between them and God and unfortunatley in this forum one can expect that if you say whats going on ppl on here will try to help with thier exp but also sometimes with thier opinions. Either way it is what it is.
For me this is a life or death deal cause i am a real alcoholic and not a problem or heavy drinker and I for over 8yrs have had to treat my illness as such not everyone in AA has to do that and thats cool too. To each his own and like what some on here have said some times it is best if I take my own inventory on whats going on with my perception.
Having said all that I do see your concern for others and I have been guilty of that also tryin to protect ppl from failing but like I was told yrs ago it is wrong to prevent someone from failing cause that m ight be the very thing they need to come back and do whats required to recover.
Thats my 2 cents worth
Dave a recovered alcoholic

Andrew, it sounds to me like perhaps you and I share the same character defect: I am intolerant of the intolerant. . . and this, makes me, yes, you guessed it, intolerant.

Everyday, when I leave the house, I try to leave behind my asshole detector. On days when I manage to do this, I manage to have a pretty serene day.

There is a difference between a mere asshole and someone who tells the struggling newcomer that the struggle to reach sobriety futile & that bottom scraping drunkenness is imminent, expected and normal. Of course unless of course you do exactly what he prescribes and only what he prescribes. And this is justified by experience that all who don't follow the prescription fail.

See the difference? That's insidious & harmful and taking enthusiasm for the program too far.

Like my best friend uses to say: "If you see more than 5 assholes a day you know who the asshole is."

Where do people get these numbers? 3% success rate? How do you define success? I haven't had a drink in almost 26 years through AA, If I got drunk tonight and hit by a bus was I a "success" or "failure"? The bottom line is addiction is chronic and relapse is common and constant sobreity maintenance is needed.
I'm not sure how you can measure success vs. failure? And 10% on their own! I flat out don't believe that one. I know the 3% is from some study but remeber:

Studies show, that studies show, pretty much what the people funding the study want them to.

I know ppl that have stopped with AA , rehab or all alone. I think the key to success no matter how it is accomplished is being READY!

No one should be getting mad at anyone else for how they chose to do it.

wishful thinking? :-)

I think it's a good point to notice that many AA groups have become a lot of sharing and leadership by newcomers who are not surrendering to the program of recovery outlined in the 12 steps. The meetings and not drinking are all good, and I am a member of AA too. However the program of recovery of AA is doing the 12 steps with honesty. And those members of AA who have a desire to not drink and do the 12 steps and continue to use them in their life and work with others, probably have a higher success rate than the average AA member who may wrongly see just meeting attendance as the program. Also many members are not there because of a desire to quit drinking but to get attendance cards signed for court or sober living homes. I've also heard if you like everyone in your meetings you're not attending enough meetings :) People who push our buttons help us work our program, learn acceptance and use the tools to look at OUR part - I like looking at my SELF CENTEREDNESS - Who am I to think every one should be a certain way because I think so? I'm not the center of the universe.

This is not AA. This an internet message board. If you want to see what AA is, then you have to attend some meetings. You have to see for yourself what it is all about. Random musings from random people around the globe mean very little.

Good Post Andrew!
You hit the nail on the head!

*ie; the responses of the mentioned "assholes"!
They seem to know who they are!?!

3%.....10%....2 million.....1 in 6.....statistics can reflect whatever the person posting them wants them to reflect. I hear that an alcoholic affects 6 other people around him. There are 2 million recovered alcoholics in the world today. 1 in 35 will recover. 10% of the adult population is in recovery. So that means there are a lot of people going out tonight getting drunk.

Andrew.....if you are referring to other web sites you belong to and they are putting you down...don't go there. Simple. Try to make your life simple. I go to AA because it works for me. According to the latest figures given by GSO, AA's membership is around 2.6 million. I have been to meetings where all I wanted to do was walk out of. But I stayed and listened. I went to a meeting in another state a few years ago. I introduced myself to people and told them I was visiting from another state. I was completely ignored. Bad meeting? Not in the least.....I learned how to treat newcomers and visitors. And yes there are people at the meetings I go to that I wish would go somewhere else. In 15 minutes of sharing they say nothing. They mumble, you cannot hear them and when they are done they think they said something important. Maybe they did but no one heard them. Ask them to speak up and they do not.

The one thing you said that does not make sense is that those just quitting on their own succeed far greater then those in AA. Not true. There is a big difference in sobriety and not drinking. Those who quit on their own do not drink. Those in AA are sober. If you do not know the difference........ask your sponsor, if you have one.

Andrew, there have been 44 responses so far on this and you are yet to explain where you get your statistics. Obviously all this is subjective and we each have a right to express our opinion, however if you are "educating" everyone about REAL FACTS, it's only fair of people to ask from where you derived those facts. I would genuinely like to know about stats on AA recovery should there origin be testable.

Another thing which is subjective is who is an asshole and who is not in a given AA meeting - ie who is of value and who is not. I have fallen into this trap many times in 11 years myself. For example, thinking a given speaker was a pain in the arse and a complete waste of time (my Oh so precious time), only to speak to another member a few weeks later who heard that share and said they intended to go home and blow their head off with a shotgun and the share stopped them. Humbling stuff.

might just want to let this one die. what's the point

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.....
Like loved1 said, a lot of people are in it because of the courts or something else forced them to be there.
A lot of other people don't take the suggestions outlined in the book.
I think if you took a look at just the people in AA that genuinely want to stay sober and work the program as it is outlined in the book you will find the statistics to be drastically different.