I think some people use that incapable phrase way to much. Sure ther are some mental illnesses out there that would render someone incapable.My thoughts on it are,if you're capable of making a decision to drink you're capable of making a decision to not drink. Far be it from me to pass judgement on another alcoholic but the incapable thing is a built in scape goat for those that really aren't ready. I've seen to many make the decision Greg

I dunno Greg, remembering the staggeringly low level of recovery in AA and outside of AA for the alcoholic who ultimately dies of this disease, I think the lack of capacity to be honest HAS to be a factor in the likelihood of attaining and remaining sober. And just like alcoholism itself which comes from both genetic and environmental factors, maybe the capacity for honesty comes from those places too?

Just ran across the excellent quesday today.

Our Big Book says if a mere code of morals etc -- many would have beens sober long ago.

Homeostasis -- is a balanced brain chemistry. Apparently nobodys is perfect.

However genitics - hereditity start a person out imbalanced -- add sugar diet, them smoking - drinking etc and mental emotional trouble start - then throw the high of sex and the craving party is on.

Tests will show brain chemistry now and where one is short - simple diet - exercise - ongoing medical care including dentist means "second things second that can be just as important in my expereince as first things first.

Again, not rocket science. The American Medical Association just started residencies for Doctor specializing in the physiology of addiction July 1, 2011, 56 years after they said it was a disease.

Michael in Kansas

Michael

Each edition of the Big Book shows a high rate of recovery. Like 50% first time, overall 75 after 2nd or third try.

My understanding A A stopped keeping track. In the groups I go to the overall 75 is accurate.

About just deciding to drink or not drink? A A says we have no defense against the first drink.

I agree = when my mind is hijacked with anger - resentment or nicotine or sugar or alcohol etc ( there are both chemical and process drugs -- process ar e gambling - sex etc.

The very part of my brain I need make decisions is out of order.

Rule 62 comes into play - not managing my life - getting medical help plus A A and professional counseling, taking my ego with a grain of salt..

Michael in Kanas

I agree with what some of the others have said. You are NOT your father. Thank god for that as far as I'm concerned.
I also agree with Nodp. in that AA is referring to sociopath's, people with other disorders, etc.
You've gotten sober. You can stay sober.
Good luck!

Great topic even though it's a year old.

Thanks Tara. I looked up the word "constitutionally". Interesting. Means "in my nature or temperament". OK. I was constitutionally incapable of being honest when I first sobered up. Honesty, sure 'nuff, wasn't in "my nature".

With God's help and the people he put in my life to guide me, I got to that place where I became willing to be searching and fearless in my 4th Step. I had to if I were ever to recover from that hopeless state of mind. Nothing more painful than to be sober without a solution (for me).

Bill W was coined by Time Magizine "The Social Engineer of the 20 th Century.

I believe he was a A A saved my life and many family and freinds.

Yet saying self aware is all that's necessary is suspect. Bill W smoked himself to death and suffering from sex addiction all his life.

More is being revealed by medical science tht addiction is genetic so hopefull both A A and Medical Science will cooperate with each other.

Michael in Kansas

People that usethe word "narcissist" should be shot. So fMing sorry but I'm sick an tired of people throwing around labels like they are educated psycologists and know wtf they're talking about. ALL people exhibit narcissistic tendencies during their life, its called "self" and the people on the b&d forum love to throw that term around. Because they read a wik link. And their relationships failed and they're addicts because they know what they're talking about. Stfu

PS Saying that A A was referring to "sociopaths and people with other

disorders is an opinion, when say there are those who are constitionally incapable of being honest.

In the 12 & 12 --step 2, page 33 it says -- many wil admit to be problem drinkers -- but cannot endure the fact that they are mentally ill.

Sounds like smug self righteousness to say they were referring to sociopaths and other disorders. A A in inclusive.

This sounds like specialness and exclusiveness. No thanks.

Michael in Kansas

Ted Bundy was not an alcoholic. Just saying. If you don't know who he is, google it instead of the wikepedia

I look at it as just accepting you are a fuck up and you are the problem. Accept it, i mean really accept it and work towards a solution

sumabitch. lol, just noticed a year old

I suppose I have a bias attitude toward the subject. I've lost a brother and a sister to this disease . In either case they had both experienced some degree of sobriety. Both experienced some degree of success. Both willingly picked up a drink in spite of their prior histories. My sister died from acute pancreatitus. She didn't fall into sickness. She was told reapedly she needed to stop drinking. She chose not to. Not because she was incapable but because she was unwilling.My brother has about the same story. Went from a regional sales manager for a major corporation to a welfare reciepent. This one struck a little closer to my heart. He actually called me and told me he was going to drink himself to death. Sure I said, call me when you sober up then we'll talk. He actually locked himself in his apartment and literally drank himself to death. Pre -meditation eliminates any thought of incapability. What that demonstrated to me that this disease is indeed cunning baffeling and powerful. But as far as I can tell they each made a choice. Free from mental illness rendering them incapable. I can only compare them to my own alcoholic experience. I chose to not pick up that next drink. Greg

Sorry for your losses.

I believe people are incapable. It's not a simple as choice or A A wouldn't be necessary.

I belieive it smug self righteousness to they had a choice but aren't as cool as me.

When a persons brain is hijacked the very part that's needed to make a choice isn't working.
Michael in Kansas

No I'm not my father, however I have his genes and my grandfathers.

That's make for vulnerableness multiple addiction. Medical attention + 12 steps is a way out.

To say I'm fucked up and the problem is more egotism - grandiosity showing off and self destructive.

Michael in Kansas