and we don't get it back either!

Today, I do not believe that I am defenseless against the first drink. But I damn sure know I'm always defenseless against the second.

Yes there is a defense and it is based upon one's spiritual condtion.

I have no more choice today than I did when I was in active alcoholism.

But there is a difference. I don't worry about even having to make a choice, because the problem has been removed. I am in that place of neutrality, safe and protected. I don't think about drinking and I don't think about not drinking. In fact, I couldn't drink today even if I wanted to.

In active alcoholism, separated from the sunlight of spirit, there is no choice but to drink.
In a recovered state, in the sunlight of the spirit, there is no choice to drink.

The Big Book says that many of us could have stopped drinking while there was yet time but once the invisible line is crossed we cannot go back - ever. Makes me think of the business man who stayed dry all those years and then, in retirement, thought he "deserved" the occasional drink only to end up dead within four years - that is a graphic example that we never regain control.

My sponsor explained to me why I was powerless BEFORE the first drink - thank God - by explaining the mental blank spot and my delusional state of mind in active alcoholism.

Gail, Good to see you. I remember the 1st time I read that story you was talking about. It was real early in recovery and all I remember is it had an impact on me. To be honest can't remember what it was but know it did.

Read, heard of it put that way about the 1st/ 2nd drink from my exp. it was and always will be the 1st drink that would get me.

Ree, I'm with you no doubt I like you if I'm spiritually fit that's the best defense we can have.

"My sponsor explained to me why I was powerless BEFORE the first drink - thank God - by explaining the mental blank spot and my delusional state of mind in active alcoholism."

My sponsor helped me to see the same thing by taking the statements in Chapter Three and turning them into questions and helping me to bring my own experience to them.

I use this a lot but it drives home for me who I am. In a Vision for you it talks about the man at the jumpin off place. That he says he never thinks about it, can live with it or without it. But that if he were truly honest and could get away with it, he would drink. He is at a jumping off place. Untreated Alcoholism I think they call it.

I have a reprieve today contingent on the maintenance of my spiritual condition. I still have a choice I have not turned into stone. I do feel active alcoholics have lost the power or choice, and i know if I do drink again, the craving will come back perhaps even stronger than before, and to stop again may take one heck of a big Divine Spiritual Experience this time if there is a this time.

So many things are said in our literature, and so many people have their interpretations of what it means. If we don't drink, do our steps, help others we have a good chance of not going there again one day at a time.

I don't have a choice I never had.

And i don't believe that waking up spiritually gives me a choice. It isn't about making a choice, because there isn't a choice to make.

Of course if I drink, the phenomenon of craving occurs. But choice isn't about what happens drunk.

Not interpretation, experience.

Jim I can see you are going to critique everything I say, and maybe that is the reason you were asked here, I don't know. We all have the right to our opinions, and your experience does not make you right wrong or anything but a drunk in the program. I feel a lot of indifference since I have commented on also using drugs, and my drug of choice was heroin, which is very similar to alcohol in what it does, suppress the central nervous system, many heroin addicts turning to alcohol years after stopping. It is sad that people still to this day shun people that use drugs other than alcohol in A.A. but again like I have said its a online thing, as I have been all over the US and this is not the case other than some controlled closed groups which thankfully there are more open rooms of A.A. for people like myself who love the program.

Rather than offend anyone here I will step down, and let you and any others that want me out of here take it up with yourselves. God Bless

Tink

I just wanted to add, if I talked about my drug use here in any length I do not think I did other than my last post, I make amends. I seldom even think about drinking or drugging today, and never introduce myself as a addict in A.A.. Hope I was able to bring something to someone here.

Every day is pay day in A.A. keep coming back.

Hi Tink,

Sorry you take my experiencing as critiquing what you say. But, the problem is in the perception. I was just invited here by a friend from another forum. You were never brought up.

You never did answer my question, which I think is a fair question in a forum called "AA Spoken Here." I had asked you if you are alcoholic. You told me it is basically none of my business. But here you answer it. Could it be that heroin was drug of no choice?

In my experience, there are people like myself who will take or leave heroin, but alcohol is their deal because it does for them what nothing else ever did for them.

I used to have a neighbor. At the time she was ten years clean off of heroin in Narcotics Anonymous. We used to talk a lot about our respective journeys, where we had been, the two fellowships, etc. I was telling her how I had tried heroin a few times and all that happened was that I puked and nodded out. It did nothing for me. Based on that, no more dope for me. Bit as for booze, it was a different story. When it worked, it woke me up like nothing ever woke me up. It gave me a sense of being whole and complete. It gets me going, it lifts my spirits. That's why they call it spirits. Booze was like speed to me. My neighbor said it was the opposite for her. Heroin did for her what booze did for me. Alcohol just made throw up and make an ass of herself.

I used to sponsor a guy. I met him in AA, but the more we got into his story the more it became apparent that he wasn't in the right place. I don't make the assumption that just because you are in the room that you are in the right place. Anyway, the guy was a nice guy, I genuinely liked him. But he was a chronic relapser and every time he went out it was in some flea bag motel room slamming dope.

But he insisted that he was alcoholic. The more we looked at his history, the more apparent it became that he wasn't. I told him that I would work with him if he would go to NA. He refused and after numerous relapses I had to drop him. He continued to go to AA and base his recovery on a lie. About six years ago I got a call from his mother. He had been found in a motel room in East L.A. with a needle hanging out of his arm.

Now I don't blame myself for that. And I really do believe that he wanted to get clean. What I do blame for stuff like that is the very philosophy that you espouse here. We kill drug addicts in Alcoholics Anonymous. And by diverting from a primary purpose we kill alcoholics as well.

I have no bitterness towards Narcotics Anonymous or drug addicts. I have friends in NA that have very good recovery. Nowadays when I encounter someone like my friend that met the tragic end, I refer them to my friends in NA who are much more qualified than I am to help them.

One last consideration: Have you ever inventoried this? You mentioned "controlling" closed AA Groups. Have you ever considered why the meeting is closed? So that maybe the ALCOHOLIC who walks through the door seeking an answer will see and hear the AA mesage?
Peace,
Jim

Tink, Don't worry & let it go. I have seen many come here and think they had all the answers and if its not there way there is no other way. Sad but true.

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-rigidity.html

Jim, the only thing you need to worry about it yourself. If A.A. is going to save a life who cares? And I am a member when I say i am a member. I would never tell someone if they were or were not. And if you took the time to read my story or posts you maybe and that is a slim maybe see the answer.

I guess all the people in A.A history before closed meetings, did not hear the message. How you can end your posts with Peace is pretty interesting. You are not here for peace, your hear to pick fly shit out of pepper.

You can polly parrot all the literature, buzz words and drop names you want. But one thing you cannot do is change the 3rd Tradition no matter how much you protest.

To deny any alcoholic the chance of recovery is tragic. T The Big Book is an esthetic and a guide. Those who want to turn it into a literal manual for other people's lives move it in a direction distant from life. Even our founders realized they knew but a little and if there was never a N.A., just as it is written the question would remain "What would our maker do?". Where would all the people who have been very instrumental in A.A. be that also did drugs if treated the way you are treating me? And I am not unique unfortunately as this is way to common of a lack of respect to those reaching out for help.

I did not answer your questions as I would never ask them of you or anyone be this a group of A.A. or not And I would never make anyone feel the way you tried to make me feel. I am a big girl I can take it, but as in with restraint of pen and tongue, today there is keyboard. And hopefully you are not the only copy of the Big Book anyone ever see's.

Came back to answer you this one time directly but its now a mute issue and I need to move on, this is not healthy nor productive recovery for me.

God Speed