Thank you Gim and Drafter.

Sorry I took this to heart. I would not want to hurt anyones feelings in a program that has saved my life.

For me, choosing not to drink one-day-at-a-time worked about 98% of the time. However, when it failed it caused week long relapses with devestating consequences.

It was not until I realized it was not reliable enough for a life & death issue that I abandoned the idea that I could somehow "manage" my own sobriety. What keeps me sober today is the 10th step promise:

"We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutrality - safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us. We are neither cocky nor are we afraid. That is our experience. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition."
(page 85)

"...your hear to pick fly shit out of pepper. "

It's the one speck of fly shit that might kill the alcoholic.


"...you cannot do is change the 3rd Tradition no matter how much you protest."

Third Tradition, Long Form:
"Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism..."

Alcoholism isn't heroin addiction. Alcoholism isn't smoking crack or meth. Alcoholism isn't gambling or overeating.

"Where would all the people who have been very instrumental in A.A. be that also did drugs if treated the way you are treating me?"

I know plenty of alcoholics who did drugs, me included. If you have alcoholism, we don't care what else you are afflicted with. What would the master do? I'm sure you know that quote comes from Tradition Three in the 12 & 12. Let's look at in context. Those early members were confronted with a problem. A guy who was a heroin addict wanted to join, so they called Bill. When Bill got there, the problem was sitting on the front steps. It was a black transvestite in a purple dress named Barry L. who was a heroin addict. They asked Bill what to do. Bill said to ask him if he had a history of alcoholism. Turns out he did have a genuine history and Bill said "You gotta let him in." And they did. He left his heroin addiction at the door and went on to 12th Step a lot of people in AA and a lot of junkies outside of AA. He is also refred to in the pamphlet "Problems Other Than Alcohol. Which ny the way, clearly states who is a member and who isn't. Alcoholic who also did drugs, sure thing. Alcoholics who gamble, yep. Alcoholics who smoke crack and do speed, you bet. But we can't admit non-alcoholic addicts nor can we lead them to believe that they are members. Which leads to:

"And I am a member when I say i am a member."

If you are not alcoholic, you cannot be a member. Period. Nothing personal, it's the principle.

As for questions, those questions were asked of Barry L. They were asked of me and they don't get asked enough in AA. I'm glad I met someone who cared more about whether I lived or died than about hurting my sensitive little feelings.


"Sorry I took this to heart. I would not want to hurt anyones feelings :

No hard feelings on my part. That is why I can say
Peace,
Jim

"If you are not alcoholic, you cannot be a member. Period. Nothing personal, it's the principle".

Pretty strong opinion, In all the literature I would like to know where that came from. Pretty arrogant.

Not Opinion. Read the literature yourself. I am not making this stuff up.


Long Form Tradition Three.

First Point of The Conference Definition of An AA Group that was removed from The Pamphlet "The A.A. Group" in 1991:

1. "An A.A. Group's membership is composed of alcoholics and all alcoholics are eligible for membership."

The pamphlet "Problems Other Than Alcohol.

You can put me on your inventory as well.

LMAO. I think I'll pass on the inventory suggestion.
I've said enough on the subject. Just a thought tho why was it deleted in 91.

You know that is a good question that I've not been able to get an answer from by anyone that was associated with the GC at that time. I have a little bit of conference literature, reports on advisory actions and what not concerning the subject. I can dig them up.

Perhaps ot was a good indicator of where the fellowship was heading then. It seems that I have had more discussions, go arounds, etc. about the addicts in AA thing over the last couple of years than I can remember before that.

Or maybe I just wasn't paying much attention until recently.

You know, I did not intend to hi jack this discussion and turn it into a addicts in AA/Singleness of Purpose thread. I know that threads take a life of their own. What happened is that I was trying to reply to two different posts in two different discussions, and being technically challenged when it comes to copy/paste, etc., I think I missed the point of this discussion.

For that I offer up amends, especially to the OP, or the person who started the discussion.

Since you are being so forthright. You forgot to mention that the two posts you were replying to in different areas were I am sure by coincidence to the same person. Just keeping you honest. Half measures avail us nothing.

For those interested in what Bill Wilson said about Drug addicts in AA see:

http://www.aa.org/catalog.cfm?origpage=157&product=10

Problems Other Than Alcohol PDF

"Billâs thoughts on the status of drug addicts within A.A. are as timely as when they appeared in a 1958 Grapevine."

Short version: Nonalcoholic drug addicts don't belong in AA. Alcoholic drug addicts do. Further, AA is NOT a cure all.

I have not in the years I have been around met anyone who did not drink and want to be in A.A.

For who did however; How much they did, if someone feels they are not alcoholic is irrelevant, if they snorted ajax is no ones business. All is required is a desire to stop drinking.

As much as I respect our Founders. I get a little tired of hearing them pt on pedestals and treated like the word of God. Brings me right back to organized religion where it about detroyed any chance of me being willing to be look let alone be openminded to another group of people using a system they believed in for anything.

Thankfully, I understood right away through the help of some very loving senior statesment, to clean my own house, carry the message and trust in my Higher Power. And that I was welcome as long as I did not want to drink anymore, and if I came to the conclusion I was a alcoholic then so be it. And today I am proud that to the best of my understanding I am a alcoholic and my name is Tinker. Now if you try to take this away from me, get ready for the Italian to come out, and it ain't no Italian Western but I have been known to get the Clint look...LOL

He is my man... and my husband has every movie he ever made or was in, so far he is still got them comin.

Here is What Bill Wilson said in the Grapevine in 1958:

"We can not give A.A. membership to non-alcoholic narcotics addicts. But, like anyone else, they should be able to attend certain open A.A. meetings, provided, of course, that the groups themselves are willing.
A.A. members who are so inclined should be encouraged to band together in groups to deal with sedative and drug problems. But they ought to refrain from calling themselves A.A. groups."

Now hold on. You make it sound like a drug addiction disqualifies one from AA membership. Not so. Being a nonalcoholic disqualifies one for membership.

Here is the entire transcript from 1958

It is pretty comical in a few places. Goff Balls? Goes to show you in this in my opinion that despise what Bill W thought, and this was only a discussion nothing changed in our traditions, that we surely have not collapsed. At one time Bill W wanted our program to be for Christians only, and face it we could go on and on about character flaws in Bill W, things he did and said while in recovery as he to was in recovery just like us.

All of this trying to be the person who gets it right, when actually almost in some of our live times the programs will be around for 100 years. The only Authority that can really change anything is a Higher Authority, this only causes indifference and a lot of it. When even myself is probably guility of, ...We "constructively criticized" someone who needed it, when our real motive was to win a useless argument. Or, the person concerned not being present, we thought we were helping others to understand him, when in actuality our true motive was to feel superior by pulling him down. This subtle and elusive kind of self-righteousness can underlie the smallest act or thought.


Finally, we begin to see that all people, including ourselves, are to some extent emotionally ill as well as frequently wrong, (EVEN Bill W.) and then we approach true tolerance and see what real love for our fellows actually means. It will become more and more evident as we go forward that it is pointless to become angry, or to get hurt by people who, like us, are suffering from the pains of growing up.